Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

could they actually not mind changing tampons, washing mooncups, etc in front of people with "female penises" ??? I can't imagine it myself.... but if you've grown up to accept that they simply ARE women, maybe you would?!

If you grew up with the freedom and normalcy to feel comfortable changing them (In a cubicle) with either men or women outside you might feel very different.

It's possible that in the future we will be forced to pretend transwomen are women but transwomen aren't and can't be women because they don't have a double XX chromosome. If we change the definition of women so that transwomen are women then women won't be women so we will need a new word for women and trans women won't be that.

littlbrowndog

I find that one interesting... not this friend but a few, (mainly men who are woke and liberal) I have asked will they date a TW... they usually say that TWAW but their own sexuality is where they are attracted to vaginas

I say so you don't think TWAW then...

They argue yes they do they have female genitalia just that it's a penis and they aren't attracted to that as they are attracted to vaginas so they can't date TW but do believe TWAW

By this point I'm banging my head and have lost all hope 😅

But green
United Nations stress that single sex toilets an£ washing facilities are safest for women
And lack of them are a barrier to education for girls

Yeps exactly interesting 😂😂

Just being wokey dudes saying the mantra but shows they don’t actually believ3 the mantra

Just to add a slightly different view to the 'motherhood changes your view', it's also true in many cases that infertility and miscarriage can change your view (certainly in my case it has) - the inability to do what is fundamentally female and ultimately differentiates us from males has been hugely challenging to my identity and has made me perceive gender and sex in a very different way.

And of course going through invasive infertility and miscarriage treatments, surgeries etc is wholly centered on the female body (even when the female partner has no fertility issues, the locus of treatment for the male infertility issue is the female's body)

I think the concept of gender may well become more fluid, I think it's possible in the future the science to support it will will there too.

It's the insistence that sex is the only thing that matters might be what becomes seen as bigoted.

So what about the UN green?

All through history there has been periods of seismic shifts of attitudes.

Again, backwards. You want to go back to a time when predation of women was totes normal. Where rape was legal?

Why is woman's attitude to violent men the problem for you? It's extraordinary. Why isn't the behaviour that is the problem for you?

United Nations stress that single sex toilets an£ washing facilities are safest for women
And lack of them are a barrier to education for girls

I think that needs to be taken in the cultural context. The world has lots of vastly different cultures and needs

It's the insistence that sex is the only thing that matters might be what becomes seen as bigoted.

Who says sex is the only thing that matters? Gender stereotyping matters massively to women.

We're talking about the difference in sex categories, and what constitutes the difference. That difference is sex.

Western, first world countries have plenty of sex based violence. Now who's racist?

One counter argument is that the suffragettes were fighting for women's rights but really only the rights of white women and black women weren't included.

Is there really any evidence of this in the UK? I would be quite surprised if there was. Here's an article on the subject:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-42837451

We are talking women and girls as were the UN
All women and girls

The world has lots of vastly different cultures and needs

No doubt. Meanwhile here.

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities. What’s more, two thirds of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html%3Famp

There's a huge part of me that thinks if I link her to the thread... she may well change her views... but she also may feel quite attacked by me and obviously she's a woman I care for hugely and don't want to upset so I'm not sure if I will. If she reads this she will definitely know it's me who started the thread... so I hope she doesn't feel personally attacked by it via me.

Her life is different to mine engaging with people she knows are TW in reality in person whereas for me beyond twitter it's a debate in my personal life and really impacts me mostly as a mother over what my male child in primary school gets taught

I don't know if mumsnet holds natal women like herself... who might be reading the thread and at the end still subscribe to TWAW and it doesn't affect me to believe that? Is that possible or does mumsnet just not have that audience? Or is there natal women reading this thread who still at this point will argue and agree that TWAW and it doesn't impact them?

Datun

But your seeing one way as forwards and one way as back. In reality neither of us can really be sure whether women in 100 years time will agree. Which was the initial question.

I also don't think there's one way that is forwards

16 odd years ago I was shocked and horrified by a shower scene that had men and women showering naked in the same space perfectly comfortably. Now i look at that big of film and wonder what are the cultural and societal blocks that prevent us as a siciety getting there. Is that a dystopian future we should be avoiding at all costs or a utopian one we should be striving towards.

I always think about that scenes these discussions and wonder if any of us can escape the insecurities and preconceptions of generations of patriarchy or does that mean we should give up and completely segregate ourselves now?

Aren't millennials generally more conservative than x-ers or boomers?
This youth=progressive=righteous trope is pretty boring

This. The transgender movement is deeply conservative in relation to gender roles.

GreenEggs

Do you understand why toilets, changing rooms, prisons and refuges are sex-segregated in the first place?

I wouldn't consider myself to have the same barriers to safety and self government to rural Africa or India. Kinda insulting to the women whose barriers are way more significant than mine. The solutions my be different too

This isn't about Victorian prudish behaviour that we've been indoctrinated with. This is our modern day experience of male violence. Of a 5th or so of women being sexually assaulted and 98+% of perpetrators of sexual assault being males.
Today. Now. In modern western society.

When men stop raping and objectifying us, then I'll discuss compromise. Not a minute before.

GreenEggsHamandChips

You are talking in the abstract. In a future world where the behaviour of men is completely different to how it is today.

Knock yourself out.

Meanwhile, campaigning today, as many people are, to abandon sex segregation is having a detrimental impact, today, on women.

The fact that you don't, or can't, grasp this, is worrying.

OldCrone

Do you? Or is it just we're looking at different solutions to the same problems.

We probably already have pee and poo in front of "women with dicks" just most of the time i dont pay much attention to whose in a bathroom and whether they have an adams apple.

It's not all about you. Many women who have experienced repeat sexual assault as children or adults are very aware of where male people are. It's built into the neural pathways of the limbic part of our brains outside of our conscious control. It's how mammals are designed to keep us safe and would do women a great disservice to over-ride it.