Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

Do you? Or is it just we're looking at different solutions to the same problems.

If you have a solution as to how to stop men attacking women in unisex situations, please share it.

All through history there has been periods of seismic shifts of attitudes.

My 13-year-old into her history, myths, literature and science came out with she thinks boxes (sex, gender) and what people can like or do are getting more restrictive not less.

Led to a talk about our issues with not finding sex of our first two babies in pg – how our relatives had melt downs as everything was pink or blue and they couldn’t buy the correct stuff this was something my parents never had. They got better with time with buy less gendered items.

That was unprompted by us, though we obviously agree and we talked about it –one of her male science teacher had prompted that in reaction to some of her peer’s persistent belief girls shouldn’t be good at science – which he wasn’t having a bar of quite rightly.

I think if there has been a shift it's not obviously been for more fluidity and less restrictions.

Just listened to Meghan murphy‘s Interview with a transwidow, who described her spouses path. The reality of it is that these are some very mentally disturbed males driving this, who try to make everyone jump through loops, because they are obsessed with gaining validation that they are something they can never be. After listening to it I feel almost silly for even getting drawn into this madness of an argument. (Sorry can‘t link). Even in the anglosphere, the only place where this has traction, the vast majority of people don‘t buy into this madness, orchestrated by some mentally unwell guys.

It's nothing to do with age or generation. My DD is in her 20s and knows that woman = adult human female because she's engaged her brain on the issue.

It's the insistence that sex is the only thing that matters might be what becomes seen as bigoted.

No, again with disingenuous, selective paraphrasing of the issue. The thing that matters is not just sex - it's the conflation of sex and gender. Women are not bigoted for pushing back against the insistence that they are the same because first, they are not the same and second, to accept this false premise means unrolling decades of struggle to overcome the very gender stereotypes that are being reaffirmed and perpetuated by men claiming to be women.

It's the insistence that sex is the only thing that matters might be what becomes seen as bigoted.

What else (in relation to men/women) should matter, and why?

Should it matter if a male wants to wear makeup and a dress? No.
Should it matter that a woman wants to be a scientist? Of course not.

I have family and friends who work with TW they usually politely accepting right up to the point it actually impacts on them in some way - or affects something they care about then the tolerance evaporates very quickly leaving huge frustration though not always with the individuals but the system that’s imposing this crap on them.

Do you? Or is it just we're looking at different solutions to the same problems.

Answer my question. Why did sex segregated toilets, changing rooms, prisons, refuges come into existence in the first place?

the vast majority of people don‘t buy into this madness, orchestrated by some mentally unwell guys.

I agree, until I remember that the government were about to change the law so that sex was meaningless, without even telling anyone. Until a handful of women said hold on a minute.

Should it matter if a male wants to wear makeup and a dress? No.

Here, I do have a few very-non-woke problems, because I think makeup sits oddly on a bristly skin and the contours often look wrong.

Same with dresses originally designed for a female figure - they don't sit right on a bloke. Someone needs to design these things properly to complement a male form.

I'd love to say I wouldn't bat an eyelid at a man in full slap and a frock, but I wouldn't genuinely think they looked good in it.

Mind you, that may be largely because I avoid makeup and frocks unless there's a wedding involved.

I'm not sure if you were designing clothes for men from scratch with no cultural history you’d come up with trousers and neck ties.

Does she believe that biological females deserve the right to define ourselves as separate from biological males?
Does she believe that women are oppressed because of the fact they identify as a woman rather than the fact they are biologically female?
Can she see that being of the sex class that gestates the young means we need specific laws to protect us from being discriminated against? Even if you never gestate young yourself? (Being passed up for a promotion because you’re of child bearing age and your employee doesn’t want to pay maternity for example)

In this future where there is no Male and female how will the people who are of the sex class that gestate the young organise themselves to fight for the right to not be at a disadvantage because of that fact?

Datun that some mentally unwell guys can bring the government to do their bidding, just because they have a couple of billionaires among them, is of course worrying in terms of Democracy. Doesn‘t change the fact that I feel more and more that standing up together and roaring a full throated ‚No‘ should suffice, instead of entertaining discussions about seeing gendered souls and what the limits of reeducation and propaganda are.
It has all become very, very silly. (Not GC women‘s fault, no doubt. Still mind baffling we get drawn into this, while most men just say ‚Nah.‘)

I saw that photo of the builders in T-shirts, hi vis jackets, skirts and trainers. They looked absolutely fine. And cool on a blisteringly hot day.

A skirt, by itself is just a garment. A man wearing it because it turns him on is obvious. Due the parody of a sexualised woman that goes with it. It's fake.

Answer my question. Why did sex segregated toilets, changing rooms, prisons, refuges come into existence in the first place?

You didn't ask me, but I'll answer: Because they reduce rape. Stranger rape, that is.

It is universally acknowledged that small villages in India not having indoor toilets is a problem because men rape the women who sneak out at night to have some privacy for peeing.

When it is something that happens in places we consider insufficiently civilised, our society has zero problem with admitting that males rape women.
People talk openly about how indoor plumbing would not only make things more hygienic, but also improve women's safety.

But when it comes to unisex loos, which are essentially the very same as the "everyone pees on a fallow field" situation, just more "civilised", people won't admit that it puts women at risk. Why is that, I wonder?

@johnnyfinland, can I ask you if you would mind sharing communal changing rooms with (a) a male and with (b) a transwoman?

I thought the bathroom issue...

Years ago we had little idea if we were sharing bathrooms with transsexuals. We probably weren't as there wasn't very many... but even if we did and noticed... we'd assume they'd lost the penis, we hadn't really faced too many problems as we felt sympathetic that they were more likely to be attacked than attack us (this is how I thought anyway)

Now we have TW fighting for the right to use our spaces and we notice... Because they make it well known they feel it's attacking their human rights if we object. And we are objecting because we are noticing because they are incredibly vocal currently (TRA's anyway)

I voiced this... I know a huge part of my saying NO... comes from having been told on Twitter a few times things like "suck my lady cock if you don't like it, it's my human right" etc

Prior to that - I would really not have noticed tbh as I don't check genitalia and some women are quite butch. But the aggression and loudness of demanding to use women's bathrooms... made me alert and very uncomfortable

And the counter argument was that it's a bit like saying you'll only accept the ones who don't bother you and just what happened to gay people/black people and saying they should be quiet and not fight for their rights...

But when it comes to unisex loos, which are essentially the very same as the "everyone pees on a fallow field" situation, just more "civilised", people won't admit that it puts women at risk. Why is that, I wonder?

Lots of reasons, but one is that they're so incredibly racist that they think that being an opportunistic predator is unique to men with dark skin.

OldCrone

You are aware that the history of for example female prisons is different from female toilets. Although both developed the way they did because the role of women as subservient and inferior to men was accepted in a way we really don't accept in this day and age and in this country.

But I really didn't want to turn this into nah me nah nah I know more than you so youre opinion is invalid because I'd rather not make it that personal. In the end i get why you hold your opinion and I do respect the reasons why, I just don't agree with it.

Why did sex segregated toilets, changing rooms, prisons, refuges come into existence in the first place?

I asked GreenEggs that question because they didn't seem to know why sex-segregated facilities were important, and why they had come about in the first place.

They declined to answer, either because they didn't know, or because they did know, but admitting it would weaken their argument for dismantling them.

Anyway, now that you have seen Hestia's post and understand why sex-segregated services came about, why are you so keen to dismantle them, GreenEggs?

Although both developed the way they did because the role of women as subservient and inferior to men was accepted in a way we really don't accept in this day and age and in this country.

Are you arguing that separate toilets and prisons for women and men came about because women were considered subservient and inferior to men?

Please tell me I've misunderstood your post.

Her life is different to mine engaging with people she knows are TW in reality in person

How many year since she left University?

I ask because out in the world of work things look very different than uni life.

I know someone who was managing a big event who got landed with a woman who what ever was asked of her she seemed incapable of because she had gender issues.

You need to change into the uniform.

I have gender issues.

But you still need to wear the uniform

I have gender issues.

There is no difference in the uniform. You need to put the uniform on otherwise go home.

Finally she changes into the uniform after throwing things down and making a huge fuss.

All day she wouldn't do anything without a huge fuss because of her gender issues.

It was a friend of a friend and they commented that this person didn't have gender issues but anger issues.

Whilst universities might be woke in changing their toilets to unisex they should remember people who use them might not be between the ages of 18-21.

I know a friend was doing some work at a certain uni and the toilet facilities left a lot to be desired

There were groups of men ranging from 18 -75 and groups of women in the same age range all of whom needed to change

Whilst your DD might not have an issue with unisex bathrooms when everyone using them is young how would she feel if she came out and a group of 70+ year old men were in their pants changing their trousers.

ATM your DD is protected from the extremes of what she advocates for but I wonder what would happen if she was faced with taking this to its ultimate conclusion.

The job friend was doing took far too long because some one had to stand guard out side the loos whilst different groups went in to change.

Pretty sure female loos came in to make it easier for women to take part in public life in this country- to work often at first in shops or to go shopping or travel longer distances with trains it got past the bladder leash.

There are known issue with public loo increasing disappearing and many people often older people who perhaps have more choice about getting out and about feel they can’t travel as far from home.

There also less female loo provision generally which is why I think it odd they reduce it further. Local theatre to my Mum now has mixed sex loos – or up several floors to male female which takes time which isn’t ideal when you have only have an interval – it’s put her off going. If mine does the same and it affected my experience, I’d not bother or do something else.

GreenEggs
In the US, women have been separated from men in prison since the 1870s.

First, women prisoners were imprisoned alongside men in "general population," where they were subject to sexual attacks and daily forms of degradation. Then, in a partial attempt to address these issues, women prisoners were removed from general population and housed separately, but then subject to neglect wherein they did not receive the same resources as men in prisons.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_of_women#United_States

If you have any evidence that women were put in separate prisons because they were considered inferior, rather than for their own safety, please share it.

—I am so, so tempted to tell OldCrown that Green is so dead set on dismantling sex segregated bathrooms because Green by their own words looks forward to a world where women rinse their mooncups in front of men—