Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

Guidance from councils, social services, etc is a top age of 8 and in some cases younger.

I think thats is reasonable.

Who is excluding women?

Anyone that supports structuring services so that women who can't comply are excluded.

Well, I'd argue that that includes
Twitter banning anyone who can't manage to believe that TWAW,
and Mumsnet banning those who correctly sex people,
and political parties banning those who won't repeat the mantra,
and schools that expect girls to share the loos with boys without complaint,
and quite a few other systems.

Those are all structures that exclude women and girls who can't comply. After all, where are their other options, apart from leaving?

I highly doubt women are calling for something that has been common practce for decades. Of course older boys should not be in female spaces.

Children with additional needs use the spaces available for those with additional needs.

Weetabix

I believe the vast majority of public spaces such as swimming baths and toilets have disabled facilities so why would a male older than 9 need to be in a female area?

I wouldn't set an age. It depends on the abilities of the individual child.

Which leaves it entirely open to the individual mother to make the decision based on no objective criteria at all, doesn't it?

Anyone that supports structuring services so that women who can't comply are excluded.

So, the TRAs and others who are saying that biologically male persons should have the right to access services for traumatised women, thereby excluding swathes of those women from the very services set up for them are wrong? Cool, glad we finally agree on something.

waits for the goalposts to be moved yet again, and another irrelevant but to be raised

Yet there's been a whole thread on MN about an 8 year old not following instructions and multiple posters saying that is normal.

I don't think that anyone can say that all children 8 and older are able to get changed, put all of their stuff in a locker and then safely wait at the poolside for their parent and then reverse it on the way out or can be left in a shopping centre without wandering away while mum is in the toilet. The majority? Possibly. All? No.

And please, if we're not allowed to talk about women who have experienced trauma as a group, you can get lost talking about mothers of boys with disabilities as a group.

I am referring to multiple threads where posters call for boys older than 8 (and in one case older than 6) to be banned from the ladies toilets and changing rooms, even if they have additional needs. If they aren't able to toilet or change independently or aren't able to be left unattended outside the ladies loo while mum goes in then that effectively also excludes women from say going swimming or even going shopping in case they need the toilet whilst out.

And the solution, which also is needed for male parents/carers with female charges, is appropriate provision for parents and children, and people with disabilities and their carers. These are problems which exist now, completely regardless of trans issues.

I believe the vast majority of public spaces such as swimming baths and toilets have disabled facilities so why would a male older than 9 need to be in a female area?

Because they don't necessarily have a disability and accessible facilities are already thin on the ground without having to accommodate every 7 or 8 year old (depending which cut off you take) child unable to manage on their own surely?

And the solution, which also is needed for male parents/carers with female charges, is appropriate provision for parents and children, and people with disabilities and their carers. These are problems which exist now, completely regardless of trans issues.

Precisely and entirely my point.

The cut off age is usually 8.

Any child over the age of 9 whom is unable to dress or toilet themselves should absolutely be using accessible facilities.

Because they don't necessarily have a disability and accessible facilities are already thin on the ground without having to accommodate every 7 or 8 year old (depending which cut off you take) child unable to manage on their own surely?

Which 7 or 8 year old boys without disabilities can't get changed on their own? They do so at school.

Because they don't necessarily have a disability and accessible facilities are already thin on the ground without having to accommodate every 7 or 8 year old (depending which cut off you take) child unable to manage on their own surely?

If your 8 yo is unable to dress and undress without supervision then I think using the disabled facilities is reasonable. Same if your 8 yo is unable to use the toilet by themself then surely there is a SEN so using the disabled facilities is acceptable.

Precisely and entirely my point.

So how about campaigning to fix that, rather than breaking single sex provision which does cater appropriately for the vast majority?

It's not about getting dressed or going to the toilet. It's about doing that, plus organising belongings plus waiting safely for the parent to meet up with them, unsupervised.

How many children get changed unsupervised at school? They don't even line up for class unsupervised.

On the other thread a poster wrote about her daughter messing about getting a glass out of the cupboard and breaking it and loads of posters all commented that their children didn't follow instructions, or didn't always listen etc yet you are all confident that your 8 year old child would not lose any clothing or wouldn't wander off if distracted?

Changing rooms at swimming pools aren't just about the boys being able to get changed by themselves, though. Its about whether the child can swim or not, because they could end up unattended not in a changing room, but in a swimming pool. Most 8 year olds can get dressed. There is a far higher percentage of them that cannot swim.

How many children get changed unsupervised at school?

All the 8 year old boys if their teacher is a woman.

ErrolTheDragon

People have campaigned though hence the development of family changing, changing villages and unisex changing but listening to views on this board it would seem that people would like to see these got rid of and revert back to single sex facilities.

I think that is detrimental to many parents.

And please, if we're not allowed to talk about women who have experienced trauma as a group, you can get lost talking about mothers of boys with disabilities as a group.

This.

nellodee

Exactly.

Sorry Weetabix but nothing you have said shows that the age limit should change.

Children dropping a glass does not mean they are unable to take off their clothes.
They get dressed and undressed at least twice a day.
If your 8 yo poses a risk to themself changing or using the toilet then the disabled facilities should be used. Why do you have an issues with that if it solves the problem if child safety?

People have campaigned though hence the development of family changing, changing villages and unisex changing but listening to views on this board it would seem that people would like to see these got rid of and revert back to single sex facilities.

Nope. We just want there to be provision of single-sex changing facilities for women as well.

And please, if we're not allowed to talk about women who have experienced trauma as a group, you can get lost talking about mothers of boys with disabilities as a group.

So only some women count then? So women, who happen to be the mothers of sons, don't matter?

Because they don't necessarily have a disability and accessible facilities are already thin on the ground without having to accommodate every 7 or 8 year old (depending which cut off you take) child unable to manage on their own surely?

Sorry, but if you are 7 or 8 years old and stil can’t dress yourself you almost certainly have some kind of disability, if only the inability to dress yourself.