Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

Well weet then please spell out for what precise argument the % of rapists among males is relevant and where the threshold for you precisely lies, given 5% vs 10% make this world of a difference for you.

Transsexual (m2f) fine by me using the loos. Transvestites - no thanks - A woman isn’t a costume or a fashion statement.

And yet the whole TRA ideology rests on the assumption that the vast majority of us are just too stupid to understand their arguments.

Well I'm not a TRA. and don't speak for them so what is your point?

Anyway, 10% and 5% are a hell of a lot closer than 25% and 0.15% - so why aren’t you calling out the bogus attempted suicide statistics?

And again, I haven't quoted those statistics, nor have they been mentioned on here, so why should I need to answer for them?

Which specific safe spaces do you want to ban trans women (who you seem to refer to as men) from?

Single-sex spaces.

If there’s more than one sex in there, it ain’t single-sex.

If there’s a reason to exclude men then there’s a reason to exclude all men, however they identify.

Yeah yeah, any woman not prepared to get naked, pee, poo, miscarry etc in the full sight of any male who wants to be there with her is stupid/bigoted/ anti men/ other shaming words.

Brilliantly derailed thread btw. Bravo.

feminist4 if I had a mastectomy would I stop being a woman?

Yeah it's very clear that whilst you purport to be fighting for the rights of all women what you actually mean is only women like you.

In fact, it is not possible to exclude any woman from the rights we fight for.

That's why antifeminist women still got the vote the Suffragettes fought for. It seems terribly unfair, as they didn't even want it, but there's nothing to be done about it.

You, too (if you are female) will profit from the increased safety in female-only spaces when males are, once again, excluded regardless of gender identity.

So no, no one here is fighting only for the rights of women like her. As it is not really possible to find out who exactly those women are and only hand the human rights to them.

So, don't worry. Much as we'd like to prevent it, you get your slice of the cake that other's do all the work baking.

I just get very suspicious about motive when a poster has to make up statistics to back up their argument.

There are plenty of studies about that show LOTS of men think it's okay to rape a woman or have raped a woman and this is your response?

Aspie

Monotremes.

Thank you. That was bothering me more than I wanted to admit.

Calvinsmam

Yes I take things literally. Sorry, is that wrong too?

Posting about removing blue M and Ms as an analogy of male violence suggests to me removing males. If it was about segregating then a better analogy would be taking all of the blue m and ms out of the bowl and keeping them separate surely? That makes sense in the context.

And yes, quoting made up statistics tends to derail a discussion as I am sure you would quickly claim if I were to make up a statistic (as I've seen many times on this board. Constant demands that a poster links to the study that they are quoting from)

“That's true, lots of genderists use the writings of Judith Butler to "prove" that the sexes are social constructs and not real, and Judith Butler writes so complicated most people don't understand it. “

Yeah that’s it isn’t it? Wanna be intellectuals smart enough to understand the conclusions but not smart enough to understand the actual logic used to reach those conclusions and hence not able to unpick it. I believe this describes the Scottish Parliament, the MSPs I’ve met have seemed pretty thick ;)... So I guess feminism (or a strand of it) is actually the root of a lot of this TRA stuff? Most of our ideas actually seem to come from other more fundamental ideas that are the building blocks of what we believe. And we build our ideas and beliefs upon or fundamental beliefs and values. So if our fundamental beliefs are things like ‘everybody can be whatever they want’, ‘inclusion at all costs’ and ‘gender is nothing more than a social construct and if it weren’t for nasty discrimination men and women would both do exactly the same things and get the exact same outcomes (I.e same number of women in prison and same number of female CEOs)’ etc... if those are ones fundamental beliefs then TRA and TWAW is the logical conclusion I suppose and will make sense to those people. And I know that we build all our beliefs off of a few fundamental beliefs because in my youth I was a member of something that could be described as a religious cult, and my brainwashing happened rapidly after accepting a few fundamental ideas and not/stoping challenging them. However when I actually look at the real world what I see is more like: gender is largely based on biology and men and women are different and make different decisions on average. Inclusion is desirable but not at any cost. People are what they are and may often not actually be what they think they are (for example a narcissist might not actually be the wonderful person they believe they are and an anorexic who believes they are fat isn’t, society can tell people who they are to an extent and an individual therefore can’t dictate to society what they must believe about them). In a perverse sort of way feminism (or at least a certain brand of ot) largely created this situation we are discussing now. So I guess TRA will continue to grow until the fundamentals that it is based on are challenged, anything else is like cutting off the leaves. I know this from my own deprogramming I suppose I would call it. Once I rejected a few ideas everything came apart and I realised I was in a cultish organisation that had controlled me.

So weet, really, this is getting ridiculous. Someone argues for sex segregated spaces, because X% are potential rapists. Then it turns out only X/2 % are actual rapists and this makes all the difference in the world for you.

Now given you are so highly interested in the actual % of rapists among males in this context, surely you can give a number, which % of rapists among males makes an end to sex segregated spaces acceptable to you.

This can‘t be hard to answer for you.

Calvinsman, that's entirely up to you?

feminist4
Well you were the one saying that if someone has breasts you call them a woman.

given 5% vs 10% make this world of a difference for you.
You've forgotten the 30% as well.

And figures aren't what I base my life on so I don't know of specific scenarios where I can say this makes a difference.

I don't like communal changing rooms of any description. I don't want to be confronted by a naked person - male or female - in a changing room so I avoid anywhere that has them.

As long as the changing room has individual cubicles I am happy to use them.

I don't expect anyone else to agree with my opinion. It's my opinion. I'm not telling everyone else that they have to do what I say. I don't like communal changing rooms and so I don't use them. I don't expect them to be gotten rid of because I won't use them.

feminist4

Do you think it’s possible for a woman to identify out of opression and if so why haven’t women just done this already?

What do you call people with breasts old crone? I call them women

As witty ripostes go

That was pants

Although to be fair to feminist

Its very hard to pin point the sex of someone if you believe that a penis can be found on both sexes

Those of you promoting the idea that legal identity dhoud not include sex should take a look ot thi. Reistaiton at bith is a key human right.

www.cgdev.org/sites/default/files/birth-registration-legal-identity.pdf

Registering girls at birth as girls makes a difference. If you don't get registered you dont get counted. If you are not counted you don't count.

plan-international.org/birth-registration/count-every-child-birth-registration

Try to take this into account with your pomo non binary privilege framework huh?

plan-uk.org/act-for-girls

No Calvinsman, that isn't what I said. I asked you a question.

Forgot to spell check!

Wheet, the statistic 1:10 males are rapists isn't "made up". It's disputed, but not made up.

The question is whether it's 6% or 10%, not whether college students are the appropriate age group to study, and whether it's serial rapists, an old trope, or your average guy.

So, yes, your focus on statistics is derailing and misleading.

The answer is no one knows, they need more research, there are many factors, but that yes, males pose a risk to females for a serious interpersonal crime.

You want some fun? Read up (spoiler alert: if you google this you find the college reviewed the paper in question in response to criticism and found no misconduct):

fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-if-most-campus-rapes-arent-committed-by-serial-rapists/

Calvinsman, that's entirely up to you?

No, Feminist4, that is entirely dependent on the definition of the word 'woman'.

What do you call people with breasts old crone? I call them women

That’s you saying you call people with breasts women!