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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

999 replies

interestingdebatetoday · 28/11/2018 23:41

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

OP posts:
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FermatsTheorem · 29/11/2018 20:40

One of the things that interests me about Lisak's work (which is about men who admit to actually having committed rape, not about wanting to if they thought they could get away with it) is he also goes into the issue of repeat offending, and comes up with a median figure of 6 rapes per rapist.

Now, as a scientist, it always interests me when you can arrive at the same number (within the error bars) by two independent methods.

And here we have two approaches.

  1. Ask women - round about 1 in 4 say they have been raped or seriously sexually assaulted.

  2. Ask men - round about 1 in 20 say they've raped a woman, often more than one women. Six rapes each on average would take the percentage of women raped to roughly 30%, assuming no woman had the misfortune to be raped more than once. But we know that there are women who've suffered more than one rape in their lives... so we're back to ball-park 1 in 4.

Two methodologies, same number.

Gives credence to the number being right.

And - importantly - far too fucking high.

Think about it. That rush hour train carriage you were on this evening - capacity of about 120 people. 3 rapists in that carriage alone.

Furthermore - Schrodinger's rapist - we have no way of knowing which 3. They don't conveniently come with the mark of Cain on their foreheads. They look like normal, everyday blokes. They behave like normal, everyday blokes - right up to the point where you're alone and vulnerable with them. In fact, they are normal, everyday blokes. Just normal, everyday blokes with a penchant for rape.

Weetabixandshreddies · 29/11/2018 20:40

I had quite a few men tell me things that made me extremely wary of them, without any hesitation. It is all about listening, nodding and smiling and asking the right questions.

I would suggest you re think who you associate with in that case.

Feminist4 · 29/11/2018 20:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AspieAndProud · 29/11/2018 20:42

but I forgot the actual classification used.

Monotremes?

‘Mammals’ has the same root as ‘mammary’ meaning breast - or, if TRAs get their way, ‘wobbly chest’.

Calvinsmam · 29/11/2018 20:42

Yes Hestia, it’s your poor choices not the men Hmm

FermatsTheorem · 29/11/2018 20:42

Stellar piece of victim blaming there, Weet.

Full marks.

Either you're male and you really do not get how the world is for women, at all. Or you're female and you're one of these women who, because she's been incredibly lucky, thinks all other women must be lying.

Either way, pretty repulsive outlook to have.

deepwatersolo · 29/11/2018 20:43

weet what % of rapists among males do you think would be acceptable for there to be unisex loos and unisex changing rooms?

VickyEadie · 29/11/2018 20:43

Women - you should know who the rapists are in advance, apparently. Otherwise, you've only yourself to blame.

R0wantrees · 29/11/2018 20:44

Fermat

Worth comparing with Lisa Muggeridge:

'Social work training: Ever present risk of predatory behaviour'

Weetabixandshreddies · 29/11/2018 20:44

FermatsTheorem

And 1:20 is shocking and I agree way way too high.

But 1:20 is not 1:10 nor the even more bizarre 1:3 now being bandied around.

The problem is when you start wildly over exaggerating you leave yourself wide open to people choosing to ignore everything that you say.

Calvinsmam · 29/11/2018 20:45

It’s amazing how quickly the ‘you’re bigoted and transphobic’

Turns to ‘women don’t need safe spaces away from men, men aren’t a problem’

And they say it’s not an MRA ideology

ALittleBitofVitriol · 29/11/2018 20:45

I would suggest you re think who you associate with in that case

Yeah, we're trying to be careful about who we associate with - like trying to keep male people out of our enclosed safe spaces.

Weetabixandshreddies · 29/11/2018 20:47

Either you're male

Of course, because a woman couldn't possibly be able to call out the absolute tosh being discussed on here eh?

AspieAndProud · 29/11/2018 20:47

I think if there was a car on the road and one in a thousand, let alone one in ten, was prone to erratic, injury causing behaviour, it would be recalled.

Calvinsmam · 29/11/2018 20:48

The rest of that sentence was ‘or you’re a woman’

And considering there’s only two sexes that’s true.

Feminist4 · 29/11/2018 20:48

Which specific safe spaces do you want to ban trans women (who you seem to refer to as men) from?

FermatsTheorem · 29/11/2018 20:48

You seem to be struggling with basic reading comprehension Weet.

So let me spell it out for you.

1 in 20 - David Lisak's research for the number of men who admit to actually having committed rape.

1 in 10, 1 in 3 - the number of men (references provided by other posters upthread) who say they would rape if they thought they could get away with it.

Have - indicative mood. Would - conditional, used of hypothetical situations.

Do try to keep up with the discussion. You're coming across as not terribly bright, as well as utterly lacking in empathy. Doubt you're winning many supporters among the lurkers.

deepwatersolo · 29/11/2018 20:49

So, weet are you saying going from 10% to 5% that means a qualitative change that warrants a different judgement regarding unisex loos and changing rooms? Where precisely is the threshold in your View?

Feminist4 · 29/11/2018 20:51

Fermat, I think you will lose supporters among the lurkers, by being so patronising and making personal attacks that do you no credit.

Weetabixandshreddies · 29/11/2018 20:51

The rest of that sentence was ‘or you’re a woman’

Yes but further qualified with
because she's been incredibly lucky, thinks all other women must be lying.
But actually none of you know anything about me. So, why are you so quick to label me?

Because I don't believe what you do I have to fit in this box or that box?

You're all very quick to jump on gender stereotypes and are yet only too happy to wield a ton of stereotypes of your own.

Materialist · 29/11/2018 20:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AspieAndProud · 29/11/2018 20:53

Fermat, I think you will lose supporters among the lurkers, by being so patronising and making personal attacks that do you no credit.

Gosh, now that you’ve explained it like that I see the world in a whole new light.

R0wantrees · 29/11/2018 20:54

Of course, because a woman couldn't possibly be able to call out the absolute tosh being discussed on here eh?

O I'm sure India Willoughby for example might:

cf Dr Nic Williams description of an interview earlier this year:
(extract)
"India Willoughby – back on Good Morning Britain again – being introduced by Piers Morgan. India will also be giving her views on the Women’s Aid story. This time up again an expert in the field; Karen Ingala Smith is the head of an amazing organisation called nia that provides services for women and children who have experienced male violence" (continues)

"Suzanne Reid tries to bring the conversation back to the topic, but India is straight in there again with the old chestnut ‘but what about the lesbians!’ India was now claiming that because some women will be abused by their lesbian partners that women staff should be barred. At last Karen is allowed to speak. “A woman and her lesbian partner would of course not be allowed in the same refuge, but statistically we know that when we are talking about sexual and domestic violence men are much more likely to be the perpetrators and women much more likely to be the victims”.

I often hear the argument thrown in by men that lesbians should be banned from women’s toilets, changing rooms etc etc. This is based on the false premise that women are at risk because both men and lesbian women are sexually attracted to women. Sexual and physical violence against women is not because perpetrators are sexually attracted to them – it is based on power, aggression and dominance – the same power and dominance that is embedded within and encouraged by the patriarchal system we all live in. This is about the imbalance of the male vs female dynamic which women grow up being aware of from early girlhood. Women, particularly if abused by men, are acutely aware of a male’s physical presence, his demeanour, his powerful place within society. It is this – the social conditioning all woman have undergone – the unconscious associations they carry within them – that means that women NEED a male-free space sometimes. That social conditioning affects us all as women – we see it in Karen, the expert in the room no less, as she waits for her turn while the males speak. I felt it inside me as I sat in the studio not wanting to interrupt or come over too aggressively. We see the male privilege that both Piers and India have grown up with pushing them on – allowing them to speak with such confidence on areas they know very little about. If we closed our eyes and just listened – there would be no doubt who was born male and who was born female around that table.

And then India pounces in for the killer blow, turning to Karen who had just dared to interrupt and give her views. India said “you accept that transgender women aren’t men, yeah?” “If I got beaten in a relationship would I be welcome?” Karen replies that India should have access to a specialist refuge for transwomen to an indignant India who declares “A specialist refuge – but they don’t exist”.

Let’s just unpack that for a minute. First, it is already the policy of some shelters, such as Women’s Aid, to allow male-born transwomen refuge on a case-by-case basis. India would not have no where to go. Secondly, how does India think specialised refuge’s for women came into existence? Women campaigned and fought for their existence that’s how. Something that the transgender community can and should be doing for themselves rather than expecting and demanding access to under-funded and over-stretched services that are not designed for their particular needs.

Without pausing to let Karen speak India then crossed a line – a line that has lost h** all respect from me and I hope all the women watching – India dared to tell Karen that her website contains a list of crimes committed by men and that this was is a great demonisation.

“I feel really sorry for guys this year – I think they’ve had it really tough”

(continues)
fairplayforwomen.com/thank-india-w-showing-us-women-perceive-transwomen-still-male/

FermatsTheorem · 29/11/2018 20:54

Oh, did my post come across as patronising?

Good oh! That was precisely the tone I was aiming for.

Always hard to know if you've managed to convey tone on an internet forum.

(Some people deserve to be patronised. Remember, I'm one of the women on here who failed female socialisation 101. And, what's more, I don't give a shit.)

Weetabixandshreddies · 29/11/2018 20:54

1 in 10, 1 in 3 - the number of men

1:10 or 1:3 of a small sample (72 in the 1:3 example) of male college students.

You cannot extrapolate that to mean 1:10 or 1:3 of all men.

And thanks for the belittling, which never happens on here does it? So now what? Only women of a certain intelligence are allowed an opinion?

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