Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

Any male, regardless of gender identity, who is so lacking in empathy that they would demand or enforce access to those spaces, is much more likely to be a danger than a man who goes where he knows he is welcome.

If one out of ten randomly choosen males is a rapist, then what do you think, how many out of ten males who have already proven they don't respect women's boundaries, are rapists?

I know some women (adult human females) have surmised in the event of gender-self id access to intimate spaces they might (for the reasons you've outlined above) be more inclined to use the designated 'male space' since by definition, the men (adult human males) there have chosen to not take advantage of the opportunity to gain access to 'female space'.

You are just as capable of using Google or any other search machine as I am
I believe in you!
Aww shucks. Thank you.

Once you've been here for a while you will see that it is perfectly standard to ask for proof of statistics

Just to get your Google search started, try the work of David Lisak - in questionnaires administered to men at American colleges, he found just over five percent would admit to behaviours meeting the legal definition of rape. So one in ten probably is on high side, but one in twenty is still a scarily high proportion.

the statement was:
" If one out of ten randomly choosen males is a rapist"

So we've gone straight away from 1:10 to 1:20 and rather than as originally stated "a random sample of men" to now a specific group of men.

Yeah, when you have to totally make up a statistic to prove your point I think you lose credibility.

@Knickknack: I suspected as much. Since the study I refer to wasn't done by anti woman activists, I didn't think it worth the effort to google it. If Weeta is interested in the truth, they can just google it themselves, if they are not, me linking to it won't help any.

Though I do wonder just how much sexual violence they think the average offender gets away with if they think it is only one in hundred men who manages to assault one in four women. (I am stupid to assume they know THAT statistic, am I?)

I know some women (adult human females) have surmised in the event of gender-self id access to intimate spaces they might (for the reasons you've outlined above) be more inclined to use the designated 'male space' since by definition, the men (adult human males) there have chosen to not take advantage of the opportunity to gain access to 'female space'.

I didn't think of that, but it's a brilliant idea.

@Fermats: I remember a study that said a low percentage of men admitted they'd rape if they didn't fear getting caught, while a much higher percentage of men admitted that they'd rape if the scientists just asked "would you have sex with a woman against her will" and didn't use the word rape.
And that's just the ones that admitted it in a study they were told was anonymous. Obviously, not every rapist would take that risk.

I obviously count them all as rapists, as you never know just when that fear of getting caught melts away.

If Weeta is interested in the truth, they can just google it themselves, if they are not, me linking to it won't help any.

Well, I wonder.

So had a quick Google but can only find stats for victims of rape or breakdowns of convicted rapists, not the % of men that are rapists.

Interestingly one report claimed that in 90% of rapes the attacker was known to the victim so maybe the threat of being attacked is far greater from a man you know than a man going into the female changing room?

Still be grateful for a link showing that 1:10 random men is a rapist.

I give you a hint: Don't look for convicted rapists, only a small percentage of all rapists are ever convicted.

Look for scientific studies.

FermatsTheorem already gave you a name. Use it. Perhaps the possibility of proving me wrong if you can find that they only found 5% self-admitted rapists is a motivation for you?

I didn't search for convicted rapists thanks and I am interested in finding the particular study that you quoted, not one that shows half the figure.

Surely, if it exists you'll be only too pleased to prove yourself right?

I think as long as men continue to be socialised to treat women as non humans, it will continue to be an issue.

Transwomens offending rates are no different to those of men. There is no such thing as 'ladybrain' that a man can be born with. Men are simply more aggressive and more entitled. Their behaviour stands out starkly against that of most women's. Women will continue to be assaulted, raped and objectified by some transwomen. These issues will never go away. Perhaps we'll just be forbidden to speak of them.

Now, if only 5% and not 10% of males are raping women, that changes everything and - yellow or blue - we should cannibalize them, too.

A lot of us though are cross at our children being taught that you CAN change your sex from the one you were born as though

But supposing our children DO accept what they are being taught despite our efforts

And the future generations are wholly accepting of that because of their education (will they?)

Then it won't be a middle class religion or debate... all classes, religions, walks of life will be thinking that way... won't they?

Or is there something that just won't ever let society eventually agree to this?

Call me cynical but I'm sensing a new tack here? The Future of Legal Gender project sent me this email last week about a meeting I was supposed to attend, but was I ill so couldn't go.

The aim of this seminar is to think beyond the current polarities that have made this struggle over gender particularly fraught. We don't want to use this space to rehash positions on either side as these are already well-known, and replaying them just seems to maintain and reinforce present divisions. Instead, we want to use this seminar to think about constructive ways of moving beyond the present divide, to explore what is at stake (and what is not at stake) approaching this thoughtfully and openly rather than by digging in, and to tease out some of the different approaches to gender, bodies, science and culture that have emerged.

I get the impression we have some posters here doing just that; the new approach being tease out is, "what if we are not old fashioned now but we will be in the future, and are just not thinking futuristically enough boundaries being so passe if you are cool and hip and worried about your half million project going up the swanny

Now, if only 5% and not 10% of males are raping women, that changes everything and - yellow or blue - we should cannibalize them, too.

Why not embrace our inner praying mantis, indeed.

Men would have a much different approach to consent if they had a 5% risk of having their head bitten off during intercourse, that's for sure.

My 12 year old DD was harassed in the street today by a man in his forties. She was in her school uniform at 7.30 am when it happened.

PYour friend is clueless I’m afraid. I am even angrier today about male entitlement than I was yesterday and I was already pretty fucking furious. Trans is just male entitlement and once you see it you can’t unsee it. Give her a decade ....

The statistic that more rapes appear to be carried out by someone known to the victim is mostly about opportunity. Offering men the greater opportunity to find women vulnerable to assault by allowing men to follow women into changing rooms is not a good plan.

Well that poster said that all responsible manufacturers of blue M & Ms stop production so how does that translate to men then? You can't just "stop producing" men can you?

Yes, Weetabix, as I explained analogies don't have to be exactly the same in every imaginable way. They are there to make a rhetorical point. I'm sure you have an imagination.

Well that poster said that all responsible manufacturers of blue M & Ms stop production so how does that translate to men then? You can't just "stop producing" men can you?

It means that it's a reasonable safeguarding measure to not let any of them in women's spaces. Whether they pretend to be yellow or not. It means that reasonable men will not be the ones violating women's boundaries. It's a red flag,

You can't just "stop producing" men can you?

If anyone really wanted to go down the scientific possibilities route, it'd be a lot easier than obsoleting women. (No, I don't think it would actually be a good idea!)

The New Mexico whip tailed lizard has evolved to be a female only species. No males are ever born, and the females now only reproduce through parthenogenesis.

OP is here selling us coke perfect harmony....

www.bing.com/search?q=i%27d+like+to+teach+the+world+to+sing&form=EDNTHT&mkt=en-gb&httpsmsn=1&refig=bc6272ea9875497ab16a6d61cbcc527b&sp=1&qs=HS&sc=6-0&cvid=bc6272ea9875497ab16a6d61cbcc527b&cc=GB&setlang=en-US

It's back to the 70s.

I think we are being finagled

Fill in the survey if you can bear it!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3401337-Attitudes-to-Gender-a-survey-being-used-to-write-a-new-gender-bill-in-the-UK

I'm sure you have an imagination.

I am beginning to doubt it.

As for not giving birth to males anymore ... well, it wouldn't be anything males aren't already doing to women and female fetuses. See China and India. And probably lots of other countries at a lower degree.

Lucky for men that radical feminists don't want to be like them. Very lucky indeed.

If women treated men like men treat women ...

Parthogenesis only produces female children. 70 vertebrate species are known to reproduce by parthogenesis.

Not one of those species is a mammal.