Women who aren't feminists

[HumourlessFeminist]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

I was blissfully unaware of feminism for far too long 😳, probably until a few years after DS was born (and after a few years of MNing). Is this a relatively common experience for women? Are women more likely to become feminists as they experience more of what the patriarchy pushes upon them throughout their lives? And why do some women never become feminists?

"I'm sure quite a few obviously attractive women find that the way the world works suits them just fine."

I was at university with a lot of young women who sneered at feminism and feminists. I remember one particular seminar where we were discussing an article about sexism in the workplace. Anecdotes in the article included men rating their female colleagues out of ten for looks and classifying them based on - and treating them in accordance with - whether they were attractive or "dogs" . The consensus amongst the female students in the group was that only a whiny unattractive feminist would make a fuss about something like that, because men calling you "hot" is a good thing. They regarded me as aggressive and a bit of a man-hater because I suggested that that kind of thing doesn't exactly belong in the workplace.

Fast-forwarding twenty years, some of those women are my good friends and they're generally more sympathetic to feminism now. I think that, as gorgeous young women, they had the naive idea that sexism would always, on balance, be more to their advantage than not; that feminism boiled down to an argument about whether you should mind when men fell over their own feet rushing to open doors for you. Now we're all forty-ish, reality is biting in the form of husbands and partners who don't pull their weight with childcare, career sacrifices, constant tiredness, elderly mothers facing poverty because they didn't realise the importance of securing their own financial independence, worries over how to teach our own children about healthy sexual relationships in an age where extreme content is readily available online...

There are plenty of "attractive" feminists. Again, there's an old 70s stereotype in there that feminists are just "jealous" of other women because, as the lie goes, we are all apparently old, fat and ugly. Being considered physically attractive as a woman does not preclude being treated like shit and is not always an advantage. (And trust me, I'd rather be me than Melania Trump any day. Shudders)

(Of course, it cuts both ways: one of my fellow students, who was very beautiful, faced a daily barrage of sexism throughout our studies - including a sexual assault on the Underground - from men who thought that her good looks were an invitation and/or meant that they were entitled to something).

I like the description that women matter as much as men. That is egalitarianism. I'm very much for it.

In order to achieve equality there are still areas of focus.

But do we have to pull others down in order to bring women up?

My perception of feminism is that it pulls down men and women that don't agree with the individuals view of feminism. That makes me say not in my name, I won't be part of that club.

I am not passively supporting the patriarchy. I am strongly supporting equality. I found that suggestion offensive to be honest

These '70s stereotypes - they actually go back much further, if you look at newspaper reports of the Suffragette movement. Harridans, harpies, man-haters, unattractive, unwomanly, unmotherly - it's all there, in the media and out of the mouths of politicians and the aristocracy. Not a great lot has changed, really, although women aren't called stupid and uneducated as much, I suppose. It's really worth looking back at the tactics used to discredit the first wavers. Lots to recognise and see where the stereotypes originate from.

Golden blue I'm with you

My feeling is that the word 'radical' implies total commitment and focus. Commitment to a path of transformation. No half measures.

No compromise?

These '70s stereotypes - they actually go back much further

They do indeed. It's all about being not knowing your place in a man's world and that attitude has been there for ever.. But I guess I'm talking more about the specific - and very tiresome - image of "a feminist" that still gets regularly trotted out among the current general public.

Lurking on the threads here has shown shown me feminism is strong, fair, assertive and passionate. For me, the purpose is to support other women including those with differing views. My view is it isn’t about putting men down, its simply centring women. Women can support other women without this being seen as being offensive to men. It has nothing to do with men but everything to do with women living in a patriarchal society.

Mercifully some of us can get beyond looks, language and behaviour.

But still clearly can't get a metaphor.

how does that square with the millions and millions of feminists (possibly the majority of feminists” who support an end to female spaces, services and sports etc, who support yhe porn industry, prostitution and other forms of sex work?

You have described liberal feminism (feminism-lite)

Radical feminists wouldn't believe all that shite.

Sadly I think you are right that the majority of feminists may fall into the first category.

Well, I have to say that now I understand a lot.

because of stereotypes of feminists that are propagated by the (male dominated) media

Actually it's the attitudes of posters on mumsnet that have made me re think describing myself as a feminist. I don't want to have views like the ones I see expressed on here. Nothing to do with the media.

Once I had my daughter, my whole outlook changed. Becoming a mother truly was the making of me, I have always been a bit opinionated, will argue my case etc, but only becoming a mother made me realise how much shit I had actually taken and put up with. It made me determined DD would not take the same bullshit.

GoldenBlue

You summed up my view much better than I could.

Well said and totally with you.

Which views do you disagree with Weetabix? Is there a common ground you can find with the other feminists here?

ChewyLouie

I have hidden the FWR board in the main (though this section still shows) because of the views that I see on there.

The aggressive argument, levelled against anyone not in 100% agreement, is difficult to witness. It's not even the disagreement but the fact that people expressing a different opinion are insulted, mocked etc. In my view of feminism all women are encouraged to speak, to express themselves. Sadly what I've seen on mumsnet it's only the right type of woman who is allowed that privilege.

I also don't believe that women can only succeed by causing the downfall of men.

My view is that we are all people and I will see everyone as an individual, man or woman.

Weetabix 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻🙌🏻

the fact that people expressing a different opinion are insulted, mocked etc.

They're argued with - I've seen a fair number of people with contrary points of view flounce off after declaring this board an "echo chamber", however.

I also don't believe that women can only succeed by causing the downfall of men.

I have never, ever seen anyone on here say that. I'd like some links to it, please.

My view is that we are all people and I will see everyone as an individual, man or woman.

So does everyone else here. However, many of us argue for separation of specific facilities, etc based on sex because an uncertain number of the male individuals aren't nice to the female individuals.

weetabix but you can't change anything or set policy on the basis of individuals. Sooner or later you have to look at things more broadly.