Women who aren't feminists

[HumourlessFeminist]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

I was blissfully unaware of feminism for far too long 😳, probably until a few years after DS was born (and after a few years of MNing). Is this a relatively common experience for women? Are women more likely to become feminists as they experience more of what the patriarchy pushes upon them throughout their lives? And why do some women never become feminists?

I would not call myself a feminist, i have been aware for years of the movement and not been a fan. I do not like the bullying /man hating attitude of majority of so called feminists.

But i am a strong, independent woman who is raising a daughter who will be strong and independent without feeling the need to degrade or bully another woman for not conforming to what so called feminist expect them too.

In addition to my experience of finding huge barriers to getting back into work - which spurred me on to writing about it in a national publication by the way, I was so angry! - the following books/programmes were a massive influence on me:

A BBC documentary on the second wave of feminism - anyone else?
The Golden Notebook - Doris Lessing
The Women's Room - Marilyn French
The Politics of Breastfeeding - Gabrielle Palmer

All of the above was after I had become a mother and, in the light of my own experience, it definitely galvanised me into thinking more critically about everyday life.

Funnily enough, I had been pretty well-read before: Aphra Ben, Simone De Beauvoir, Charlotte Perkins Gillman, Mary Wollstonecraft...plus a whole raft of 19thC big novels. But it was all a bit theoretical, as if it was a historical phenomenon and would never actually apply to me. Oh how wrong I was!

It's quite frustrating that women don't want to describe themselves as feminists, either because of historical baggage or because of stereotypes of feminists that are propagated by the (male dominated) media.

Feminism is a broad movement; be the feminist that you want to see.

I've always been a feminist, but only recently (like in the last few years) did I realise that what I felt and believed in was actually the same thing as feminism!

I had swallowed the whole bad press line about "angry man hating feminists" and all that. While I'm ashamed I fell for that, I am not ashamed to openly say I was wrong (why are people so scared of admitting they got something wrong?).

I think that is the biggest issue. People don't realise what it is.

(haha, see case in point of *Beaverhausen above!)

yes, that was me too. Got to always think about men positively rather than realistically and must pretty much centre them, or think about their feelings, even if it's not relevant or they certainly aren't doing the same for women. And if something didn't affect me personally then why should I care?

when I think about it.

there is a stigma around being seen as a troublesome feminist

Yes, and it's interesting.

By definition, a feminist is troublesome, because it's someone who challenges the status quo of male dominance, or resists backward movements.

Feminism will always be essential until we achieve the end of fgm that currently mutilates millions of girls worldwide, the end of forced marriage, honour killings, rape, prostitution, stereotyping of children’s toys and clothes, discrimination against women in the job market, unequal pay, domestic violence, the assault on women’s sex segregated safe spaces such as changing rooms by TRAs, the contempt and violence toward women of the porn industry...
Need I go on?
Any woman who denies being a feminist is passively supporting all those abuses against women, by accepting them as normal.

Babdoc while I am in complete agreement that your list is a huge reason why feminism is needed; do you think, given we have people on this thread on the fence about feminism or actively turned off by the label, that to tell them they are passively supporting abuse of women is the right thing to do? I think it just perpetuates the “wrong kind of feminist” rhetoric that some on this interesting thread have talked about. I personally believe that feminism should be for any woman who believes in equality of opportunity and wants to act, in whatever small way, to end the abuse of women. I think there’s room for a lot of different strands all woven together into the same rope, with same ultimate goals.

"I do not like the bullying /man hating attitude of majority of so called feminists."
Can I ask where you see these attitudes?

zzzzz- so you would never say "We need a radical rethink of our company's policy on recycling" or "The Industrial Revolution saw a fundamental change in the pattern of employment of working class people in the U.K."

AnyONE who tells me what I support and insists I use their descriptors is deeply annoying at best.

It's really a case of if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and swims like a duck... even if it says it's a dog...

AnyONE who tells me what I support and insists I use their descriptors is deeply annoying at best.

It's strange how people don't see that 'you must be a feminist if you think X' or 'you must hate women if you don't label yourself as why' is just the same as describing women as cis, or gender critical feminsts as T*Fs.

It's amazing how blind people can be to their hypocrisies.

I wouldn't meet a lot of the definition of feminist for this board, and yet I do as much as I can in RL on a day to day basis. Some of the things on the list up there ^^ I don't campaign and work on, because I simply can't do everything. That doesn't mean I don't think they are unfair, just that for me I have certain issues I can make a difference on.

By putting forward that list and saying you have to be involved in campaigning about all those, you've immediately excluded me.

Or like telling people they are racist if they think X.
They may not like the word, but they fit the description, so...

You may not like to be associated with the term feminist, or even call yourself feminist, but if you spouse feminist beliefs and act according to feminist beliefs, then my dears, guess what you are?

There are many reasons why some women never become feminists. I'm sure quite a few obviously attractive women find that the way the world works suits them just fine. The likes of Melania Trump would be an extreme example of this. At the other end of the scale a lot of women who would really benefit from some of the things that feminism has to offer are probably too busy trying to run a home, provide for their children to even think about it.

I am a feminist. A goady male family member was once spoiling for an argument with me. He asked me if i was a feminist. I said that i was by my definition of feminism. He asked what that was. I said 'i believe that women matter as much as men.' he spluttered and said 'is that it? I believe that!' I said 'well you are a feminist too'. He was extremely annoyed at that.

That is my frame of reference. Checking if any situation bears up the requirement that women matter as much as men. Sadly not, in many cases.

I think when we live in a world where the most successful and visible women are still judged on their looks or talk about their experiences of sexual assault and violence and it’s commonplace we can’t say we have equality. I am happy to be a feminist and am always surprised when people reject the title - I don’t give a shit if I’m not a perfect feminist or I haven’t read all the books, I believe in women’s liberation and that is all that’s required

🙌🏻 GoldenWonderwall

Feminism will always be essential until we achieve the end of fgm that currently mutilates millions of girls worldwide, the end of forced marriage, honour killings, rape, prostitution, stereotyping of children’s toys and clothes, discrimination against women in the job market, unequal pay, domestic violence, the assault on women’s sex segregated safe spaces such as changing rooms by TRAs, the contempt and violence toward women of the porn industry...
Need I go on?
Any woman who denies being a feminist is passively supporting all those abuses against women, by accepting them as normal.

How does that square with the millions and millions of feminists (possibly the majority of feminists” who support an end to female spaces, services and sports etc, who support yhe porn industry, prostitution and other forms of sex work?

The label isn't always helpful, I find - it can be frustrating to find yourself arguing with someone who has a very fixed - and incorrect - view of what your beliefs and arguments actually are. I find myself arguing with strawmen a lot. Stereotypes from the 1970s, mainly.

Also as Badmoonsarising points out, above, there are plenty of women calling themselves "feminists" who do not seem to see structural and power inequalities between the sexes at all.

If I have to choose, I'd prefer actual beliefs, demonstrable actions and understanding of material realities over identities, labels and false narratives any day of the week.

My feeling is that the word 'radical' implies total commitment and focus. Commitment to a path of transformation. No half measures.

@cathydyson

Also quite a lot of "obviously attractive girls and young women" come face to face with what that can mean in the world from very early on; and are observant of how they are treated - which can be more, or less, favourably. Attractiveness need not exclude one from being observant of these things, though; or from having a strong sense of self and integrity.