Women who aren't feminists

[HumourlessFeminist]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

I was blissfully unaware of feminism for far too long 😳, probably until a few years after DS was born (and after a few years of MNing). Is this a relatively common experience for women? Are women more likely to become feminists as they experience more of what the patriarchy pushes upon them throughout their lives? And why do some women never become feminists?

I think that society lets families down in many ways.

I have always viewed a family as a unit and the people within it work for the benefit of that unit. In many cases, having a SAHP or at least a parent who works part time is a big benefit. Whether that is a SAHM or SAHD is surely for the couple to work out?

Being a SAHP is an incredibly valuable job. Sadly I've too often seen women put down as being "only a SAHM", as though working in a low paid, low status job (which I am btw) confers a higher status? It's rubbish. Women, and men, should have the choice to do what they want without being judged by anyone else.

I was/am a SAHP. I am happy to talk about why and why I think it’s OK from a feminist perspective if anyone’s interested in quizzing me!

Women's role as mothers and carers is also a feminist issue. Feminism is much bigger and more profound, certainly for me, than equal rights. Although the struggle for equal rights is absolutely essential too.

For me feminism is about empowering and valuing the female, the feminine roles and the female body. It has to begin there. The body is what makes us women. The feminine roles are often the source of women's oppression. not because they exist - but because they are not valued.

Feminism is not so much about 'smash the patriarchy', as about elevating the matriarchy at the same time. Two supposedly distinct set of values, which often rub up against each other in painful ways, but which can also co-exist in equal value - or so says my radical feminism.

I understand why many women reject female or feminine roles: because of their lack of obviously recognised societal value; or because, for many, not all of these roles feel natural or suited to the individual woman. And women also want to be free to explore other possibilities and pursuits in their life, which they cannot in societies which restrict women, and men, entirely to allotted roles.

I think money; lack of money; wealth; lack of wealth; are one of the main determinants here. For many choice is not an immediate luxury; even though, of course, one still has some basic choices to make. On a daily, moment by moment basis.

The feminine roles are often the source of women's oppression. not because they exist - but because they are not valued.

I agree with your post. Sadly, it's some women who also don't value other women and the choices.

It's almost as though they view women who have chosen to be a SAHM as having let women down. As though the only way to be a feminist is to act more like a man.

I see comments on here similar to that. Trans women are often put down because they are described as parodying women by wearing make up, being ultra feminine and liking pink (I am paraphrasing here and this isn't my opinion). The thing is, lots of wo.en also like wearing make up, high heels and lits of pink. Fantastic. It's their choice. Also great, the women who like wearing jeans, DMs and t shirts. Brilliant. It's calked freedom of choice. But why are some choices judged and criticised?

Choices are judged and criticised because we live in a society where male is the default and any female is seen as less.

My take:

Maternity leave and pay - radically feminist act (in my mind).

But wait! Women are getting a paid holiday to be with babies because all women love babies and not working. It’s not fair on men because they don’t get a break and it’s not fair on employers and society having to fund these lazy witches who choose to have children.

Ok so what can we do?

Well we can punish these women by scuppering their career in various ways because they’ve had a break, we can make childcare so expensive huge amounts of jobs these women do don’t cover the costs of going to work, we can make it socially acceptable for men to carry on as if there were no kids and have the woman pick up the slack and we don’t have to say any of these things overtly because a lot of it is ingrained thought from the past.

It’s still not fair though.

Ok so instead of giving men the same leave we’ll give men half of maternity leave. This is equal.

So women do the first six months where it’s really fucking hard and whilst they’re potentially recovering from surgery and ebf on demand and men do the second six months where it’s slightly more about weaning and baby groups?

Yes. But this is technically equal, the best kind of equal.

But will men take it up seeing as though it’s not compulsory and the pay is shit and the hours are long and it potentially will negatively impact their career?

Well if they don’t, maybe it’s the fault of the women sefishly refusing to share their maternity leave with their partners - because they all love babies and are looking for an excuse not to work.

So to me, a feminist act of recognising that maternity should be funded and women have legal rights is spun into something that both harms women in the workplace and is seen as some massive perk that men should get some of. I don’t see anyone legislating that men should give women 10% of their pay to make the pay gap technically equal!

I’m all for paternity leave but I think it should be in addition to maternity leave rather than instead of.

The UK in the top 10 for worst pay gaps.

uk.businessinsider.com/these-are-the-countries-with-the-worst-gender-pay-gaps-2018-12

So women do the first six months where it’s really fucking hard and whilst they’re potentially recovering from surgery and ebf on demand and men do the second six months where it’s slightly more about weaning and baby groups?

But then the other alternative is to let women go back to work immediately while men do the first six months.

But then women have no time to recover physically and no chance to ebf.

There are no winners here.

I think that everyone needs to give more thought into having children.

In my view, having children involves sacrifice, on behalf of both parents.

You cannot realistically have a child and expect your life to continue as before.

If you don't want any changes then don't have children.

In my view though, all of these decisions need to be made fairly and equally.

When we had children I chose to give up my career because what I wanted was to bring my children up in a certain way. My husband supported me in this choice. Yes there were benefits to him in that he didn't have to worry about childcare issues etc. He still did more than his fair share of housework etc and he also works 50 odd hour weeks to support us financially (I do work part time now and have for a long time, around school hours and now my children have left home it's not an issue) so in my view we both sacrificed.

Paternity leave for fathers that is not taken from women's maternity leave and can be taken alongside women's leave would be the answer for me.

Paternity leave for fathers that is not taken from women's maternity leave and can be taken alongside women's leave would be the answer for me.

I guess that's one option. I suppose for many families the opportunity to minimise childcare expenses by having one parent off after another is more appealing than having both off together.

So to me, a feminist act of recognising that maternity should be funded and women have legal rights is spun into something that both harms women in the workplace and is seen as some massive perk that men should get some of.

Agree.

That could be an option for those who want it, parents could choose to take their leave in chunks and not necessarily at the same time. But the key is that men have the same/similar amount of leave to women, and is flexible enough to suit people's different circumstances.

There was a MN pinned thread in active recently about an insurance company who give their employees the same leave entitlement, and unsurprisingly the number of men who have taken leave is up. Plus the amount of leave they take has massively increased. That is the ideal model for me.

AssassinatedBeauty

I think flexibility of both maternity and paternity leave is the key. If it could be taken in smaller blocks rather than one big chunk I guess it would have less impact on careers though would be a nightmare for employers to cover I guess.

There's no easy answer that's for sure.

I think it's the length and level of pay for paternity leave that's crucial, currently 2 weeks with minimal pay is no where near what it should be. Employers can obviously offer better deals but few do.

That's why women often end up doing the bulk of childcare, because they are the ones who can take the leave to do so.

AssassinatedBeauty

Yes, clearly the length and pay for paternity leave has to match that of maternity leave in order to equalise things.

weet well yes, so that’s the issue isn’t it? It wouldn’t be fair (though it would be technically equal) for men to take the first 6 months and women the 2nd. So there’s equality and equity to me - equality of opportunity might mean giving more resources to women/men/girls/boys at different times to create equity and also having an enlightened society that doesn’t froth at the mouth about how other people are getting ‘more’ and it’s not fair.

Yes, you and your husband both made sacrifices but his are a personal one and yours was a professional one. No one lies on their death bed wishing they spent more time at the office, but I imagine plenty of people wish they’d had been able to put more money towards their retirement (and women are poorer in retirement than men because of not working with babies and children and long periods of part time working and earning less in the first place).

If we had true equality then women and men who take time out of the workplace to raise children or be pt would not be penalised by this, because as a society we’d recognise that children being able to spend lots of time with caregivers that want to be with them is as worthwhile an endeavour for the adults as making money for Widgets PLC is. But we wouldn’t expect and assume that women will want to do this or that men would not and structure things based on this assumption. Which is what happens now.

If your truly free choice is man works full time in very important job and woman looks after dc or has pt job that fits round dc then you’re laughing aren’t you? If this isn’t for you or can’t work for you, then you may struggle against lots of assumptions and stereotypes.

Why on EARTH any woman would not be a feminist is beyond me entirely! 🤷🏻‍♀️

It wouldn’t be fair (though it would be technically equal) for men to take the first 6 months and women the 2nd.

But that is just cold, hard biology surely? No matter how equal or enlightened society becomes you can't overcome the fact that women give birth.

Yes, you and your husband both made sacrifices but his are a personal one and yours was a professional one.

And in my view, he's paid the bigger price. No job or money in the world could compensate me for missing the time that I had with my children.

And that's the point really. I had choices. I had the choice to go to work or stay home. At the time I was actually the higher earner. My husband could have been the SAHP but I didn't want. A)I wanted to be with the children and B)no way did I want the responsibility of financially supporting the family.

For us, in reality, it was me who was unfair. I did what suited me and what I wanted.

If there's a financial penalty for me later in life I only have myself to blame. I wasn't forced to do anything. I made my choice freely and in full knowledge of the implications.

Is that not true feminism? Freedom to make my own choices (and mistakes)?

I think flexibility of both maternity and paternity leave is the key. If it could be taken in smaller blocks rather than one big chunk I guess it would have less impact on careers though would be a nightmare for employers to cover I guess.

It is a nightmare already. My department is over- staffed at present to try and future proof maternity leave. The fact one cannot ask if /when an employee is coming back and if so part time or full time until well into the maternity leave is also a nightmare.

lweji - i’m All for personal responsibility but I think the societal impacts of stay at home parenting or caring for elderly/disabled are overlooked. It reduces working parents from having to take leave when their kids get ill (nurseries don’t always accept them), forming a good bond is generally positive as is any reading that can be done. Caring for sick or disabled people can reduce hospital admissions and improve the quality of life for people who are vulnerable. That is not to say that caring is suitable for everyone (some would be carers have learning or physical disabilities themselves so it may in fact be better for them to work if possible and someone else to do caring) but its value should not be underestimated. 14 years of academic Education is not essential for survival but recognised and valued - let’s do the same for caring roles.

Men are more ambitious in there careers. I m gunna get a lot of hate for saying this but women are more emotional and would rather go to there kids dance recital that'll to work overtime at night. Whereas men do it all the time. Women are designed to want to look after there children and would probably rather stay at home.
I m 21 and think I have quite a mature head on my shoulders, I think women should stay at home and raise their babies and the man should work, instead of handing your baby to a childminder!!

LassWiADelicateAir

Yep I get that.

There are conflicting demands here - parental leave and then those of the workplace.

Someone I know is employed on a maternity cover contract and it is very difficult - the uncertainty over when it will end is becoming increasingly difficult and I think they might well jump ship if a permanent position elsewhere comes up, which will leave the employer in a very difficult place.

It's about standing on your own feet and not depend on a partner.
I understand your reasoning but in a partnership, it’s fine to apportion responsibility for different things to each person. There are times in my relationship that I have been the main earner. It’s for people to organise their lives to suit them, however, the current arrangements around maternity and paternity leave don’t allow for that in an equal way.

Let's focus on helping employers with this issue then, rather than penalizing women for the fact that they are the ones that must be pregnant and give birth. It should be seen as the norm that many people will want families, and systems should be in place to manage that. It shouldn't be the case that it is all on individual women to bear the cost to society.

Many people are on short term contracts. I don't think that maternity cover contracts are the only issue with that. Job security is a much wider issue.