Women who aren't feminists

[HumourlessFeminist]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

I was blissfully unaware of feminism for far too long 😳, probably until a few years after DS was born (and after a few years of MNing). Is this a relatively common experience for women? Are women more likely to become feminists as they experience more of what the patriarchy pushes upon them throughout their lives? And why do some women never become feminists?

Yes of course women as well. But the people being cared for have fathers, sons, sons in law, brothers...it's very rare for anyone to ask where they are..

I haven’t seen the sahm thread but I started a thread about being a sahm on this board and the posters here were very supportive. Imho radical feminism supports sahm because the point is to start again with men and women being truly equal. If they are, traditional caring roles would be valued the same as everything else. Personally I don’t enjoy being a sahm, but I didn’t have a genuine choice in becoming one, which happens to 50,000 women every year who have dc.

There was a report in The Times which showed sexual assault and voyuerism were massively increased in unisex changing rooms. I agree that facilities for mixed sex groups where someone in that group needs support should be improved (I wouldn’t want to send my 8 year old ds into the men’s changing rooms on his own either), but mixed sex facilities do put women and girls at more risk from, well, men. Family and disabled access needs to be improved but I would hazard a guess that the people that are in charge of design stuff are not mums with young or disabled children so will do the bare legal minimum and no more.

Family and disabled access needs to be improved but I would hazard a guess that the people that are in charge of design stuff are not mums with young or disabled children so will do the bare legal minimum and no more.

But if demand increased then availability would increase.

But the people being cared for have fathers, sons, sons in law, brothers...it's very rare for anyone to ask where they are..

Of course. Flip it on it's head then - how do fathers, sons, sons in laws, brothers cope when out and about caring for female relatives?

What you are assuming is that female carers should care for female relatives and male carers for male relatives.

Some sensible compromise is going to have to be made to avoid isolating large numbers of the population.

zzzzz Sat 01-Dec-18 09:30:11
I think what happens is people draw lines in their minds about what they care about, or at least what they can engage with. So if your focus is feminism you may not want to also consider the plight of women carers because to you that is central. You may be far more focused on the hell that is the whole trans impact and to be honest that’s fair enough isn’t it?
It’s not always the biggest or most important thing in others lives and I think the assumption on this board is often that that’s because your mind is full of rather paltry trivial concerns. Often for me the “feminist” concerns feel that way.

this. completely this. This is exactly how I feel when I read this board - I have other concerns than trans that loom large in my life, and some concerns that aren't exclusively feminist concerns that take up my head space, and there's only so much I can do - I simply can't care about everything - and when there's a list, like there was at the start of the thread, of all the things you HAVE to care about to be a feminist, that excludes me.

That, and the need to be familiar with feminist theory and have read and understood feminist writers and academics. That excludes me. I don't want to have to go and read and learn, I'm a doing type of person, not a reading type.

I don't mean that to offend, but the thread is about why people aren't feminists, and I'm explaining my pov.

Just wanted to say thank you to the posters who are giving their POV. I’m finding it really interesting to read and challenge my own POV as well. Do I believe in pulling others down? No I don’t, but I can see why some aspects of feminism look like that depending on where your personal beliefs sit.
I wholeheartedly agree with (I think) Zzzz that you cant care about and campaign about everything. I’m disabled myself and support several local disability charities as well as support others online with the same illness as new diagnosis brings a set of specific challenges to navigate.

My own experience of becoming a feminist is based on experiencing inequality, in an incredibly minor way, in my relationship. That small inequality has led me to FWR, and ultimately to setting up a feminist group where we are concentrating on what we can do to help women and girls locally.

Lass I know you used general “you” and you weren’t particularly directing it at me but it was my example that you used. I think we do live in a patriarchal society, set up by men to benefit men, for the most part. I think this includes sex stereotypes, that men do certain types of jobs etc. I’ve just read a whole book to DS and there were no women in it at all, so I do think there’s a way to go. I think feminism is a way of looking at society and recognising where and why it is not equal.

I’m not very good at articulating my views and arguments but I am glad there are people here making arguments against feminism as I’m genuinely interested in different perspectives and critiquing my beliefs - I think it’s important to do as I don’t think I’m 100% right 100% of the time.

Lass I know you used general “you” and you weren’t particularly directing it at me but it was my example that you used. I think we do live in a patriarchal society, set up by men to benefit men, for the most part

Yes, I wasn't getting at you but the weakness I see in radical feminism is , to be simplistic, the argument is "smash the patriarchy " . It downplays and even dismisses the need for individuals to take charge of their lives.

I also think radical feminism is very unhelpful in addressing the need to get over things. I am not talking about rape or sexual assault. I mean things like the recent "not shaving while swimming" thread or the numerous comments about "someone in the next cubicle might hear me unwrapping a tampon"

I have said this before but I find there is an undertone to radical feminism which perpetuates the idea of shame. The line being society thinks not shaving/ having periods is shameful so of course you (general you) cannot help feeling that way.

I'm not convinced in real life "society" gives a flying fig about unshaved legs at a pool or that "society" thinks of periods as anything more than another messy bodily function. George Osborne managed to talk in the House of Commons about VAT on tampons without batting an eyelid, as indeed did Gordon Brown.

I think the correct response to "someone might hear me opening a tampon wrapper" should be- "so what if they do? Did they even notice or care?" - not to encourage the idea that "yes, it is dreadful that they might hear and yes it's ok for you to be bothered"

That is what I meant about feminism encouraging victimhood.

"What you are assuming is that female carers should care for female relatives and male carers for male relatives."
No I'm not! Why do you think I'm assuming that?

badger I can't link on my phone but you might be interested to hear about the Staunch Book Prize, which has been set up to reward thrillers that don't feature violence against women.

"What you are assuming is that female carers should care for female relatives and male carers for male relatives."
No I'm not! Why do you think I'm assuming that?
Forgive them, I've misunderstood. But if we insist on sex segregated, without exception, facilities how does having male carers help? Unless your argument which is for male carers to be available to help male dependents, which you are saying to aren't saying.

Lass I do agree with you about the “shame” aspect. I think for the most part everyone is far too involved in their own lives to even notice what other people are doing, or whether or not they have shaved. It’s certainly not something I would personally agonise over. I don’t think as a general rule radical feminism is overly concerned with such things - I think that’s probably a MN quirk.

“Smash the patriarchy” is simplistic. I suspect it’s meant to be, I don’t particularly interpret that as being a defining point and certainly the feminists I’ve spoken to have never mentioned it. I think I would take it to broadly mean that we need to work, individually and collectively, to dismantle some of the areas within our patriarchal society to reach equality. By equality, I mean equality of opportunity, not necessarily direct equality. So, we all need to work collectively to push against the gender pay gap and look at how we might do that. Individuals do need to take personal responsibility for getting things done, otherwise nothing would ever get done. I suspect we’re on the same or similar page there but perhaps not!

I do agree that sometimes on here there are threads where I personally would just get on with it, but different strokes for different folks. Not up to me to say what is or isn’t important to someone else.

I know that I probably do get way to het up about things on here. I just really hate it when posters are advancing a cause on behalf of "women" and my view is speak on your own behalf. If that's what you want to fight for, crack on, but on some of the views they aren't speaking for me and I begrudge anyone using me to fight for anything, unless I agree to it.

A common phrase on hear is that "FWR isn't a hive mind" well nor are women. We don't all think the same or agree on anything so why are these arguments put forward as "women want" or "women think"?

Some do, some don't, some don't care either way. We should all be allowed to voice our opinions though.

Radical feminism isn’t women worrying about shaving their legs, it’s about changing systems so they are equal and sometimes this means women would get a bit more than men because they would need it.

So for example women’s toilets would be bigger than men’s and contain more cubicles because women take longer and can’t generally piss into a urinal so need more space. Making them exactly the same would not be equality for women because at this moment in time men and male is the default so women’s toilets being the same as men’s results in long queues in the women’s for the same service.

If the lack of mixed sex facilities for carers impacted on men in general then there would be more and better facilities because the default is male in our society. Because it impacts more on women it’s seen as a difference from the default so it’s not taken seriously. Imagine what things would be like if it were assumed the most vulnerable were assumed the default! Imagine if children were considered first in toilet and changing room design and providing disabled facilities were seen as just as important as able bodied facilities.

If we had true equality you could shave your legs or not, sah or not, be ceo or not and it would not impact on any of those things if you were male or female - there would not be a hierarchy of choices where default male choices are seen as better and choices that aren’t necessarily choices for women and men are used to show why they are in their place in the hierarchy.

GoldenWonderwall you’ve neatly articulated my beliefs thank you

Because the word feminist has lost meaning.

If the lack of mixed sex facilities for carers impacted on men in general then there would be more and better facilities because the default is male in our society

But how do mixed sex facilities exist if a proportion of women protest against them?

With limited space how can places provide mixed sex, family, accessible and single sex changing, toilets and shower facilities?

Weetabix quite a lot of us on FWR are suggesting third spaces to accommodate people who would benefit from a mixed sex environment. I appreciate there will be an argument for space and money needed to make changes but either a third space or well-thought our unisex changing rooms/toilets etc which contain floor to ceiling self-contained cubicles with a lockable door and a sink inside. Hopefully they would accommodate everyone. I haven’t seen anyone completely against any changes, just against allowing the women’s to become mixed sex without thinking things through.

Goldenwonderwall This is exactly how I see it. I’m a sahm and I do love it but sometimes feel I’m letting my children down by not being a good enough role model by breaking stereotypes by example. If everything truly were equal, everyone could choose whatever they wanted without judgment.