Women who aren't feminists

[HumourlessFeminist]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

I was blissfully unaware of feminism for far too long 😳, probably until a few years after DS was born (and after a few years of MNing). Is this a relatively common experience for women? Are women more likely to become feminists as they experience more of what the patriarchy pushes upon them throughout their lives? And why do some women never become feminists?

Why on earth not????

But context is everything. In swim trunks at a pool no worries. Public loos in the next cubicle yep fine. My children share public spaces with adults of both sexes regularly.

that's what I'm getting from the unhappiness with 'all men are potential rapists', zzzzz.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be segregated spaces. But I can't get get up about the (perfectly normal) examples you gave

But I think this is a classic example of what is so off putting. You start talking about the treatment if women in family courts and the interaction between feminism and disabled rights

and you end up talking about who's next door to you in the toilet

“I think living your life as though every man might rape you is unhealthy”

Yes, so do I.

I also think living your life as if every man is a paedophile is unhealthy. But it is taken as perfectly OK on thread about 8 year old boys going into men’s changing rooms, or going to public loos on their own.

If you’re in a room with one hundred people at random you have no way of knowing if the colour of their skin has an impact on whether they will commit a crime but you do know if someone’s going to rape you it will be a man (U.K. law etc) that does it.

It would be lovely if people could discuss rape and how women react to rape with perhaps just a tiny, tiny bit of thought that many of the women reading this (feminist or not) will have been raped and using their reaction to being raped as an excuse to question people’s mental health or accuse them of having a ‘victim mentality’ is really quite cruel.

*But I think this is a classic example of what is so off putting. You start talking about the treatment if women in family courts and the interaction between feminism and disabled rights

and you end up talking about who's next door to you in the toilet.*

Very sorry if I have put you off. I thought this thread was about why some women are not feminists. I'd hate to think that my input on subjects like this was actually off-putting to some.

...(smacks wrist and promises not to mention toilets)

I don't understand this argument that says feminists paint women as victims. Women are victims. It's not a linguist trick. It doesn't mean victim mentality, to acknowledge that.

It's about power. Whether it's physical, or structural.

You can't stop being sexually harassed, dominated, bullied, or attacked by saying out loud this won't happen to me.

Feminism addresses the inequality by lobbying for laws to which women can have recourse. Equal pay, maternity leave, sex discrimination, sexual harassment, rape, etc.

There wouldn't be any need if women weren't the victims of those crimes.

Our experiences are all different. Some women are victims of violence, rape, discrimination but not all women.

Whilst it is definitely worth trying to improve the situation for women who are victims. It is also worth trying to improve the situation for other victims (including children and men). A lot of non-feminists would agree with that and it would maybe spread some goodwill. For example with the toilet issue - what do people think about a range of options- female, male and some separate secure, lockable rooms (for people who have a need for the extra privacy or needed more space/baby change/disabled access). Things can change -access to baby change facilities and family changing rooms is now better than it once was.

@Namenic

Isn't that what we have now? if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I've rarely met a woman who doesn't feel discomfort at the idea of a unisex toilet facility; and that is based on the fact that I've made an effort to go around my city and talk to all sorts of women about it.

Perhaps all of those uber liberal, inclusive women who are happy with unisex facilities could use the men's loos if they feel so inclined, and in doing so make those MTF identified men feel more comfortable & safe in those spaces. It may also help in reducing queues at the ladies'.

I woke up to feminism as a teen thanks to the overt sexism of an engineering company who gave me and my friend work experience. We both had comparable grades at school, equals, and both wanted to go into engineering. When we arrived I was take up to he office for and photocopying and he went into the workshop. When I complained they moved me to the showroom. As it turned out that been typical of my experience of work ever since. I've stuck with working in

zzzzz

The situation you describe is what makes me so shocked when I see the arguments on here for not allowing male children into women's toilets and changing rooms. Given that they pose no physical threat I find it unbelievable that some women are content to exclude many other women (as carers of male children) because they place their want for privacy above other women's ability to participate in society.

Honestly these arguments just bring to mind Animal Farm - all people are equal, but some are more equal than others!

The women arguing for this aren't, in my mind, arguing for the rights of all women, they are arguing for the rights of some women and if by succeeding they actually exclude other women well, "tough luck" appears to be the attitude.

Making space for people who aren’t like us and don’t share our priorities would encourage people to do the same. Just saying that this would probably encourage more non-‘feminists’ to get on board.

Zzzz - I feel the issue of caring should be a feminist/society issue. Caring by relatives (mostly women) is not well recognised economically and saves the govt lots of money. The govt wants women ‘in work’ - but doesn’t seem to count caring for children/disabled/older relatives as work despite paying other people (usually women) low wages to do this (early years and care home workers). That is not to say we shouldn’t encourage men to take a cut in their career to do this too (improving with shared parental leave/part-time).

• I feel the issue of caring should be a feminist/society issue.

It really should be and it amazes me how any feminist could advocate for a policy that excludes many women who are carers.

I am happy to join in any campaign for much better facilities for people with disabilities-in fact, I have joined several in my local area. But even meeting the bare minimum of legislative requirements means that all swimming pools have accessible changing rooms.

The threads about boys over 8 in changing rooms are always overwhelmingly about the perceived risk boys face in the male changing rooms from men. Similarly, there are frequently threads about men in childcare saying "it's not worth the risk" and "my husband wouldn't accept it. I repeat, why is "all men are potential paedophiles" considered an acceptable precaution and "all men are potential rapists" feminist extremism?

I agree, but sometimes it feels that the more feminists don't want to focus on caring as a feminist issue as it reinforces the stereotype that women do the caring. Even if in practice women do tend to do more caring.

Bertrand I do hope you ask the people who have that as an issue on the relevant threads.

Because I don’t have a problem with any of those things. All men are not rapists. All men are not pasdophiles. I had no issue with sending my boys to male changing rooms and my son worked in childcare on his gap year.

*paedophiles

Laundry As mentioned in my pp, working in the engineering industry was what did it for me too. I think some of the debates which are happening on this thread are interesting but sound a little bit like people thinking very abstractly. Sexism against women in the workplace happens every day, in this country, right now. Much of this sexism is based on assumptions about the roles people should have that are rooted in myths about people’s biology. Addressing this practically by encouraging more girls to take up STEM subjects in school and making parental leave truly equal will make a start. The current transgender debate is an important part of the whole thing as people shouldn’t face discrimination of any kind but it could be very easy to muddy the water when it comes to things like self-ID and redefining the words woman and man, girl and boy when addressing the earnings gap for instance.

"Bertrand I do hope you ask the people who have that as an issue on the relevant threads."

Yes, I do.

Incidentally, I agree that feminism has not focussed on caring and motherhood as much as it should. When I was a young woman the focus was very much on access to contraception and abortion- both very current issues at the time. There is still plenty of work to be done around the impact of caring responsibilities on women. This is one of the areas where, should men choose to, they could make a huge difference. Both as individuals and as policy makers.

I don't have an issue with young boys using men's facilities because I believe that all men are dangerous (I don't believe that). My issue is safety, in general. That not all 8 year olds are ready to be left unsupervised (as reflected in the thread talking about 8yr olds not following instructions, where it was deemed normal). It's not only an issue of campaigning for more accessible facilities either because many able bodied children need additional parental support. Many places have recognised that and introduced family changing facilities or changing villages, but these are deemed unacceptable by people calling for single sex facilities so in my view, that is an active choice to exclude women with young sons (and dads with daughters too).

This is one of the areas where, should men choose to, they could make a huge difference. Both as individuals and as policy makers.

And women too actually. The worst treatment that I have had has come from women managers - the attitude seems to be "if I can do it, so can you" or that as women we have to prove to men that we can do it! Male managers have always been accommodating if I've needed time off for child related issues.

There's a thread on here from a mum asking what she can do when her friends from an ante natal group go back to work because she will be a SAHM and is worried about becoming isolated. Plenty of posters telling her to go to work, as though being a SAHP is not an option worthy of consideration.

Surely the point of feminism should be that
women have the choice to do whatever they want? It seems that some types of feminism actually want to limit choices for women and to constrain us in different ways.