Women who aren't feminists

[HumourlessFeminist]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

I was blissfully unaware of feminism for far too long 😳, probably until a few years after DS was born (and after a few years of MNing). Is this a relatively common experience for women? Are women more likely to become feminists as they experience more of what the patriarchy pushes upon them throughout their lives? And why do some women never become feminists?

weet some women do not think all female facilities should be mixed sex and most women would not object to a third mixed sex space in addition to single sex spaces. You acknowledge that how things are already make this hard. What does that tell you about how places were designed? Bearing in mind indoor plumbing for the masses isn’t a legacy from the very olden days and many places people are talking about are relatively new buildings (gyms, shopping centres etc).

My gym for example says boys aged 8 and above need to go in the men’s and there is no mixed sex spaces for carers or families and it can’t be more than 15 years old! That tells me a lot about who designed it and who they expected to use it.

I’m interested as to how feminism which is a movement for the liberation of women is supposed to be responsible for the historical design of public services that don’t include everyone when I find it highly unlikely that any woman (feminist or not) had any say in the design or build of any of these services before the last decade or two.

some women do not think all female facilities should be mixed sex

MOST women. And the vast majority of men, too.

zzzz how is being a sahm breaking down stereotypes? Bearing in mind I am currently a sahm so I’m not sahm bashing.

GoldenWonderwall

I guess that even 15 years ago many people were excluded from society and the lack of facilities reflects those attitudes. Provision for people with disabilities was poor because they weren't expected to participate. As we have recognised, rightly, that this is an awful attitude and are moving towards including everyone then facilities have to change to accommodate this.

There never was an issue with taking boys into the ladies, and I don't remember an age limit. It was until they were able to manage on their own, so no one was excluded if they had eg a 9 year old son unable to manage and no one available to accompany him into the mens.

I don't hold feminists responsible for 20 year old building planning. I would hold feminists responsible if they insisted on implementing such stringent sex segregation rules now that meant that some women were unable to use a facility because they have a son who can't be left unattended.

Surely the point of choices is that there are different pros/cons and costs/benefits? Surely the job of feminism or any broadly progressive liberal ideology should be solid education and presentation dispassionately of what the options are? The making of valued judgements or what is right/wrong is impossible as values are subjective philisophically speaking.

I think sometimes rightly or wrongly feminism is seen as attempting to minimise the cons/costs to women individually as well as collectively which becomes a bit of a problem as there is no such thing as a free lunch as the cons/costs aren't really negated they are shifted onto society as a whole.

Personally I worry that this approach infantilises women and plays directly into the hands of a patriarchal attitude that women must always be "taken care of" and all too often stands in the way of being trully free.

I think for both toilets and sahm it’s the same thing - looking at the last few years in isolation and saying women have equality now so that’s done and dusted and we can move on to other groups or issues who are more important. I fundamentally disagree and think we have not got equality based on my own life, from stats and from looking around the world.

crit I don’t understand your post. Could you explain with a real life example?

I'd prefer to stick to the broader principle for the time being if that's ok? But I'll try to be more succinct. We can either treat women as individuals with their own individual preferences and values which will shift massively the relative value of those choices open to them, or we view women through a collectivist lense where many individual woman can be defined and made to feel inadequate when they make any choices outside the norm.

One thing I've noted from having a 6 year old little boy is how much he's praised for his individuality vs girls who are often praised for their ability to co-operate. Little girls individuality disappear quite quickly into what it is to be a 'girl' Wheras the individualisation is almost considered synonymous with being male.

I think sometimes we take our socialisation with us into the structures we create to try an liberate us. Which perpetuate some of those cycles in ways we do not anticipate.

Feminism is for the liberation of women as a class. It cannot describe the individual experience of every woman any more than capitalism can make everyone a millionaire. I see women as individuals and that’s why I think feminism is important - if women are seen as truly equal to men we will be seen as individuals as opposed to an homogeneous mass of sexy or caring supporting characters.

I’m very glad to live in a country with a strong history in women’s rights. It means we can support other women around the world who do not have our opportunities whilst recognising issues we still have here.

@zzzz

I don't think it needs to be either/or.

We need to continue to campaign for civil, humane and dignified spaces spaces for all in society. However, quite naturally, some of us are drawn, thorough immediate circumstance, to prioritise some campaigns over others. This does not negate the struggles of others, or diminish their importance.

It’s as unusual a choice in the uk now as studying STEM subjects was in the 80s.
I think the only reason there are fewer full-time SAHMs is because most households need two incomes. To be honest, when I became one, it was only because I got a decent redundancy package which we use to supplement my husband’s income.
Looking at figures for part-time workers though, the majority are women as even if they can’t become full time SAHMs, they generally will be the parent responsible for most of the childcare and will reduce hours or change jobs to ones with less responsibility, closer to home, etc. to allow them to fit around school times.

Someone mentioned the gender pay gap which affects who becomes stay at home parent - which is probably true in a lot of cases. However if people/feminists campaign for increased part time work for men (as well as women) then the tax system would incentivise 2 part time workers as opposed to single breadwinner. Tax system also incentivises shared parental leave.

Within a family it is up to the couple who does the jobs - so wouldn’t feminists only pick partners who do their share of childcare/housework (unless they became feminists after finding their partner)?

Well I know the mental load for domestic chores and general emotional labour falls to women irrespective of career/sahm status, gender pay gaps etc. That does need to change. However where I am struggling is what state interventions are possible to correct for this? I do see and correct me if I'm wrong that feminism is primarily an advocacy/pressure group, yet when we look at countries like Sweden with the most positive legislation/programs for women the gaps appear to be widening?

Yes, it was noticed at some point that maternity protection for women actually increased inequality.
Hence, recent legislation in different countries has moved towards encouraging sharing of parental leave.
I know a few cases of men who've taken it up.
More needs to be done, but it's a step in the right direction.

And yes, I'd expect feminists to choose partners who do their fair share. That's a make or break for me.

The thought of SAHM breaking stereotypes is laughable. More like going backwards. Fine if it's your choice, but you're not exactly doing much for feminism by depending on your partner's salary and losing connections with the job market.

As I was beginning to start a lecture on Friday, this young pregnant woman mentioned that she was lucky her partner helped at home.
I couldn't resist pointing out that he wasn't helping. She looked somewhat confused and said that yes, he was contributing not helping.
I didn't have time to talk about being lucky...

I think that it's important that every feminist in us challenges everyday expressions and expectations.
I think it works better than women marches, and even legislation.

I agree that being a SAHM is not breaking stereotypes, but I don't think that denigrating the role of childcare is the right thing to do. Ideally as many men as women would choose to be SAHPs and the importance of early childcare to society would be recognised and valued.

No.
It's about standing on your own feet and not depend on a partner.

So childcare should be outsourced and women should return to work as soon as possible?

@zzzz

We all experience "scale, perspective and weight" differently, though, according to our circumstances, our experiences, and to our innate temperaments.

God every girl I meet now is a feminist, complaining they don't get the same things men do for example jobs. Some complain that women don't get the same opportunities in power politics wise but they don't complain about jobs like cleaning sewers and picking up bins! Sounds like women want to pick and choose how equal they want to be lol!
Feminists give other women a bad name if you ask me x