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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stella O'Malley, Trans Kids: It's Time To Talk

609 replies

drum123 · 21/11/2018 20:06

Apologies if there is already a thread about this. Channel 4, 10.00 tonight. 'Stella O'Malley considers the huge rise in numbers of young people embarking on gender transition, through the prism of the gender identity issues she experienced when she was a child.' According to The Times no TRA groups were prepared to contribute to this . Stella feels this may be because she was a tomboy as a young girl, (even insisting she was a boy until she hit puberty), and is now a confident, mature woman who believes that nowadays she would be pressured to go down the transition route. Sounds like it will be worth watching.

OP posts:
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ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 27/11/2018 08:33

And this person who has done this is given a platform by groups fighting for our rights simply because we agree with some of the things they have to say.

I've been sceptical of male transpeople inclusion in women's groups for a while. I can see that it is a an obvious way to prove that there is no hatred for transpeople, but I think it ultimately doesn't help women and girls.

The desire to please male people will exclude many women and often take the focus away from women and girls.

R0wantrees · 27/11/2018 08:38

Each case is unique. Each person does the best they can, with the cards they were dealt.

Just as the transwidows thread demonstrates such clear and predictable patterns of control and abuse, so too the knowledge & experience on the relationship boards here.

I had bought into/being gaslit into the lie that every relationship was unique etc.

The Freedom Program, Lundy Bancroft, Women's services etc demonstrate that with male-pattern controlling abuse /behaviour there are scripts, inevitabilities and important patterns to understand.

This is especially pertinant given we are a few days into the 16 days of action:
WPUK

"End Violence Against Women & Girls
November 25th is the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women and girls (VAWG). The United Nations are calling on people everywhere to stand up and be part of the #16days campaign to highlight the problem and to challenge society to act to end it.

The day was originally organised as commemoration of the assassination of three political activists, the Mirabal sisters, in the Dominican Republic in 1961. As those who campaign for human rights all over the world know, violence against women, sexual violence, and political oppression all too often go hand in hand.

The #16days campaign ends on 10th December which is UN Human Rights Day to make the point that women’s rights are human rights and must be upheld.

This year the campaign is also using #hearmetoo.

The UN says:

“Violence against women and girls (VAWG) is one of the most widespread, persistent and devastating human rights violations in our world today remains largely unreported due to the impunity, silence, stigma and shame surrounding it.In general terms, it manifests itself in physical, sexual and psychological forms, encompassing:

intimate partner violence (battering, psychological abuse, marital rape, femicide);
sexual violence and harassment (rape, forced sexual acts, unwanted sexual advances, child sexual abuse, forced marriage, street harassment, stalking, cyber- harassment);
human trafficking (slavery, sexual exploitation);
female genital mutilation; and
child marriage.
To further clarify, the Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women issued by the UN General Assembly in 1993, defines violence against women as “any act of gender-based violence that results in, or is likely to result in, physical, sexual or psychological harm or suffering to women, including threats of such acts, coercion or arbitrary deprivation of liberty, whether occurring in public or in private life.”The adverse psychological, sexual and reproductive health consequences of VAWG affect women at all stages of their life. For example, early-set educational disadvantages not only represent the primary obstacle to universal schooling and the right to education for girls; down the line they are also to blame for restricting access to higher education and even translate into limited opportunities for women in the labour market."
womansplaceuk.org/end-violence-against-women-and-girls/

R0wantrees · 27/11/2018 08:41

I'm civilised with my ex too but it doesn't mean he didn't put me through hell.

And I'm thankful he's not on this board, mansplaining women's experiences back to them.

The space for women profoundly affected needs to be much better respected and protected.

deepwatersolo · 27/11/2018 08:43

And Debbie is human and god knows wanting to be happy isn't and shouldn't be a crime. I've got sympathy with the decision Debbie made. But here of all places we mustn't buy into the 'brave and stunning' narrative. Debbie's choices had serious effects on Debbie's wife and children and it's OK to talk about that.

Well expressed how I feel, Bernard. As for Debbie's wife, I guess, all one can do is leave the door open and make it clear her voice will be heard. (?)

TinselAngel · 27/11/2018 08:46

I get what you're saying Deep, but I wouldn't be here if my ex had got here first. I'm lucky he didn't work that out.

R0wantrees · 27/11/2018 08:53

As for Debbie's wife, I guess, all one can do is leave the door open and make it clear her voice will be heard. (?)

I imagine it might be difficult for a woman in such a position where their husband is being so widely applauded and celebrated as being such a 'good guy'.

Further isolation?

CathyDyson · 27/11/2018 09:02

Thanks for the supportive replies. I have to admit I went to bed wondering if I'd done the right thing and wondering what would be waiting for me in the morning. Glad to see some others feel the same way.

R0wantrees · 27/11/2018 09:05

TinselAngel
I was similarly struck by the woman interviewed on the BBC as NotTerfNorCis commented on the TransWidows thread wrote:

"There's a story on the BBC today about a couple where the husband has decided to transition.

I feel so sad for the wife, Lynne. Right at the end she fixes the camera with a desolate stare and says 'things could have been so much worse. I'm one of the lucky ones.' She looks like she's about to burst into tears."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-bristol-46074037/the-couple-still-together-after-gender-reassignment

LangCleg · 27/11/2018 09:13

I'm civilised with my ex too but it doesn't mean he didn't put me through hell.

And I'm thankful he's not on this board, mansplaining women's experiences back to them.

Solidarity. I can imagine you are. Tone deaf and intrusive is deeply unpleasant.

Mumfun · 27/11/2018 09:36

CathyDyson

I have been thinking about this a lot too. It was also a personal issue as I felt aligned somewhat to Mrs Hayton. I was sacked as a wife by my husband for another reason. And this sacking is what I felt happened to Mrs Hayton. I believe that UK marriage includes sex as a legal element. And very obviously a trans sexual transition denies a sex life to the transwidow and also physical affection also as (shown in the film) she didnt relate to the changed body.

It left her in limbo. She is a wife but not a wife. She has all the heavy lifting to do but with less of the affection and support. And has to deal with several other factors to which I can relate. She is I think of a strong religious background which makes separating and divorce much more difficult to contemplate. She also has to deal with a factor I had - with a lot of energy being put outside the relationship. Debbie spends a lot of time now writing , appearing in the media and doing work to do with being a transwoman. And still has a teaching job. Therefore a lot of energy is being taken away from the marriage and directed towards the issue that has caused the sacking of being a wife.

It is heartbreaking and incredibly difficult to deal with.

I was in limbo for another reason concerning my marriageand I know it is a really bad place to be and you should get out of it if at all possible. I did and feel immensely better than I did.

I agree that I think Debbie took the actions she did due to dysphoria and that she was in another bad place herself.

I noticed she bit her lip a bit as her wife spoke in the film showing that she realised how hard it is.

But she has found herself in a much better place than her wife in that she drove the changes and still has a family and family home and support. It is hard to write about this but I do feel more for the person left in limbo and in greater distress. I hope longer term the wife can leave the relationship as the children mature , get out of limbo and find her own new life that gives her joy.

OrchidInTheSun · 27/11/2018 09:44

I also agree with your post Cathy. Thank you for articulating my unease.

I think her name is Jennifer

LangCleg · 27/11/2018 09:45

Mumfun - that is a very good post.

For me, the question isn't really about a hierarchy of suffering. It's about women's spaces resolutely centring women. This doesn't mean that one lacks sympathy for the suffering of male people (with regard to any issue, not just trans issues) but that feminism should centre women and only women.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 27/11/2018 09:57

Yes, Lang, thanks for clarifying my thinking.

My view is that Debbie is entitled to support, but not here. This place is by, about and for women.

Debbie's wife clearly needs support, and should be able to access it on a feminist board. If Debbie's presence here prevents Debbie's wife from accessing this board for support, then Debbie should leave.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 27/11/2018 09:59

and even in articulating that thought, I'm talking loads more about Debbie than about Jennifer.

Your attention gets sucked in certain directions and it's hard to fight it.

CathyDyson · 27/11/2018 10:04

Debbie spends a lot of time now writing , appearing in the media and doing work to do with being a transwoman. And still has a teaching job. Therefore a lot of energy is being taken away from the marriage and directed towards the issue that has caused the sacking of being a wife.

I thought about that too. My first reaction was, shouldn't you be spending more time on your marriage than doing all those things? Maybe things are so bad that it is actually more helpful for both of them for Debbie to busy themselves so there is less interaction.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 27/11/2018 10:06

There's also an impact on daughters who are adolescent or entering adolescence around the time their erstwhile dad is transitioning. A friend of mine went through this and really struggled with the pressure to be 'girls together' just when she needed to be separating from her parents into her own new identity. I'm sure some parents manage better than others but I can't see how it can be anything other than appropriative.

LikeDust · 27/11/2018 10:13

I agree with these brilliantly articulated points.

Men often do behave extremely selfishly around the time of middle age. I've known of a few cases of the husband feeling desperately sad, obsessively so, that he hasn't had sex with enough women in his life. The wife supports him to go out, shag someone else and come back to her. It mystifies me, but everyone who knows about it is clear about who in the situation is priorising their own happiness at someone else's expense and who is prioritising someone else's happiness at their own expense. The man having the affair doesn't get seen as stunning and brave - people think 'God what a selfish little shit how could she stand it?'.

It is so awful thinking of a woman having to deal with similar feelings of betrayal, abandonment, humiliation and disrespect, but her husband is able to get greater social standing and approval.

It reminds me of cultures where polygyny is the norm and women are supposed to suck it up and be happy about her husband taking on a new wife. In those cultures women have very low social status and value.

R0wantrees · 27/11/2018 10:15

Some forms of male control-abuse are harder to identify. Especially for the woman.
In some patterns, the abuser is seen by all around the couple as the nicest, kindest, most generous of men. This can be a deliberate contributory aspect of the control.

Lundy Bancroft's book is, as always, worth sharing:
the-eye.eu/public/Psychedelics/Psychedelic%20Praxis%20Library%203.0/Collections%20by%20Subject/Social%20Progress/2002%20-%20Bancroft%20-%20Why%20Does%20He%20Do%20That%20Inside%20the%20Minds%20of%20Angry%20and%20Controlling%20Men.pdf

CathyDyson · 27/11/2018 10:26

Men often do behave extremely selfishly around the time of middle age.

I've wondered why that is in regards to transitioning. All the cliched things like having an affair, buying a fast car etc smack of some obviously sad attempt to hold onto their youth, to prove they've still 'got it' whatever it is. But why transitioning? What does that do or are we supposed to buy into the argument that those feelings have always been there but suppressed?

TinselAngel · 27/11/2018 18:25

I think it's the same reason that provokes any midlife crisis in men. They think "I'm going to get old and boring and feel unimportant, but I've always known I'm important, different and special. I'm going to do that thing now that I've often contemplated doing, before it's too late".

It's just the thing that they decide to do that varies. The thought process is the same.

BettyDuMonde · 27/11/2018 18:47

‘Facial feminisation surgery’ is more socially acceptable than a man getting a facelift/fillers. Plus, they get to be ‘girls’ and ‘go through puberty again ‘ despite natal women of the same age being proper fucking grown ups.

The human ken doll has said he will transition when he’s old, i forget his rationale, I will go look for quote...

BettyDuMonde · 27/11/2018 18:59

*He began: 'I am very happy to be a man for now but I don't want to an old saggy man.

'I will do what Caitlyn Jenner did. When I reach my late 50s, I would rather be a sexy old lady then a saggy old man*

From here: www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4902598/Human-Ken-Doll-Rodrigo-Alves-reveals-sex-change-plans.html

And

*Rodrigo said: "II don't want to age as an old man, I'd like to grow old as a woman, I'm 34-years-old and am happy with who I am, but when I reach my 50s I could live as a woman.

"I am happy looking how I am for the moment but I don't want to age looking as a plastic modified man, I want the best of both worlds*

www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/human-ken-doll-rodrigo-alves-11398321

AngryAttackKittens · 27/11/2018 20:12

This is not the space for the former partners of transwidows to be centered, no matter how validating it may be for them to center themselves. I'm guessing I'm not the only one casting a jaundiced eye on attempts to do so.

Team Mrs Hayton. We've already seen Debbie arguing that if a woman or girl is uncomfortable with their presence in toilets, changing rooms etc then the onus is on that woman or girl to object on this very forum, so I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that Debbie hadn't really thought about what Debbie's transition has done to Debbie's family. Debbie's wife is allowed to be angry about that, and so are we.

KayM2 · 27/11/2018 20:50

It is clearly entirely appropriate for TS women to comment on this thread, as the issue of partners was included fairly and squarely in the programme.

It may be that some people are uncomfortable about it, but that does not make it inappropriate.

(Speaking for myself, there was no " trans widow" as I was unmarried at the time of my decision to transition, so I need no " validation", nor do I need to " centre" myself)

At no point, ever , have I argued that the spouse of someone who transitions from an otherwise successful marriage is in anything but a dreadful situation. That is a given.

In fact, I have seen more of that stuff happening than most, and have often commented elsewhere on the way that transition often causes wide ripples of damage. The one case I have personally known of f to m transition from within a marriage was also a " train wreck".

AngryAttackKittens · 27/11/2018 20:55

Still team Mrs Hayton!

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