Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's Hour Tues 20/11/18 "Why is the current debate about sex and gender so often called “toxic” - we hear from @Bex_Stinson and @helenlewis"

184 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 20/11/2018 09:16

twitter.com/BBCWomansHour/status/1064804876327235584

OP posts:
nottakingthisanymore · 20/11/2018 16:57

Just listening now. My jaw hit the floor when they said that they didn’t want non trans people speaking for trans people. Well quite! What would I know? I’m not trans. How can they not see the double standard of this. Trans women have a whole plethora of experiences that I have ever experienced and never will. So they acknowledge that there are differences between us when it suits them. But it’s absolutely fine to become women’s officers, speak for women in business etc etc. If they concede that I must not speak for them, why do they think they can speak for me !

MenstruatorExtraordinaire · 20/11/2018 17:13

Jane Garvey has been absolutely amazing on this as have the gender critical feminists.

I'm just so frustrated that this wasn't aired a month ago when we were all campaigning to raise awareness of the consultation.

Budgieinaberet · 20/11/2018 17:22

I thought the BBC was Woke Central, so why would Bex be scared of going there

Threewheeler1 · 20/11/2018 17:24

nottakingthisanymore
Exactly! What's it to be TRAs, because it needs to be consistent at the very least? Those goal posts are in a state of permanent shift, even on the basic principles...

StarsAndWater · 20/11/2018 17:44

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/20/burble-burble-intersex-burble-social-construct-burble-burble-trans-women-are-women-sally-hines-on-womans-hour/
Sorry if this has already been posted but it's amazing

The url alone is brilliant 😂

KatVonGulag · 20/11/2018 19:14

Oh here we go.
Along with mumsnet (obviously) women's hour is now responsible for the deaths of transwomen all over the world.

Trans Activists do a terrible job of putting their side across today and yesterday on woman's hour = death of transwomen. Since yesterday......

Erm

The words bat shit and crazy spring to mind.

Woman's Hour Tues 20/11/18  "Why is the current debate about sex and gender so often called “toxic” - we hear from @Bex_Stinson and @helenlewis"
BlackeyedGruesome · 20/11/2018 19:36

Oops. One should really not comment if one has heard neither beginning nor end of an interview and does not know who is speaking. Mind you not recognizing names does not help either as that would not have helped.

Sleep deprivation has made me less careful.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 20/11/2018 19:41

Finally listened. Absolutely loving Jane Garvey.

KatVonGulag · 20/11/2018 19:58

Here's another sterling piece of hypocrisy.
How DARE you discuss issues that might trigger us on our solemn day of remembrance. We are remembering the dead.
Meanwhile on their own feed.....I'm the goddess of sex workers!!! Grin

BouncingOn · 20/11/2018 19:59

After all the previous disappointments with coverage on this issue I am always expecting the worst now. However JG is doing a fine job & Helen was great - beautiful sound bites and accessible language. A turning tide? I do hope so.

Ereshkigal · 20/11/2018 20:00

They always do that. I've seen people whinging that GC issues are even discussed during "Pride Month".

ScipioAfricanus · 20/11/2018 20:04

The more tweets like that the clearer the devaluation of the word ‘transphobia’ becomes to the public. Accusing Women’s Hour of having blood on its hands is something most people will be somewhat taken aback by.

R0wantrees · 20/11/2018 20:06

Helen Lewis wrote this article for the New Statesman April 2018:
'The madness of our gender debate, where feminists defend slapping a 60-year-old woman
It seems swivel-eyed to condemn rhetorical “attacks” and blithely ignore physical ones.'
(extract)
"You would have thought that a feminist getting punched in the face would be reasonably large news – particularly if her attacker had boasted online earlier of wanting to “fuck up” some feminists, comparing them to fascists. But the conviction of the person who attacked 60-year-old Maria MacLachlan at Speakers’ Corner last year didn’t trouble the pages of the Guardian, where I would normally expect to hear about something that veers close to being a hate crime, or the LGBT website Pink News. Why? A clue comes in the fact that MacLachlan was slapped by a 26-year-old transgender woman called Tara Wolf, who explained to the court that MacLachlan was a “TERF” – a term commonly used to stand for “trans exclusionary radical feminist”, ie one who doesn’t believe that trans women are “real” women, but which Wolf defined as a “trans exterminatory radical feminist”.

The implication was that MacLachlan, now 61, wants all transgender people dead – something that seems absolutely barking until you realise this is quite a common accusation in activist spaces. The feminist group Sisters Uncut, which has done great work protesting the closure of domestic violence services, somehow looked at the case and decided that Wolf was the real victim. It used a hashtag – #freetheshewolf – and called for a protest outside Hendon Magistrates’ Court, asking for support for a “trans woman targeted… and harassed by TERFs, transmisogynists and cops”, adding: “Attacks on trans lives will not be tolerated.”

While I have no doubt that Wolf has faced prejudice and bullying due to being trans, it seems swivel-eyed to condemn rhetorical “attacks” and blithely ignore physical ones." (continues)

The Wolf affair also demonstrates another alarming phenomenon: the left getting high on its own supply of self-righteousness. “Some feminists have a different conception of gender to me” gets smudged into “some feminists talk about me in ways that I find offensive” and on to “some feminists are basically Hitler, trying to eradicate people like me”.

Once you reach the last statement, then of course you can slap a woman and still think of yourself as a good person. She wants to kill you; a mere punch is self-defence. (I’m not exaggerating about the language. The Edinburgh branch of Action for Trans Health tweeted the day after the attack: “Punching TERFs is the same as punching Nazis. Fascism must be smashed with the greatest violence to ensure our collective liberation from it.”) Luckily, sanity prevailed in some corners: immediately after the attack, the trans activist Shon Faye tweeted: “Whether this is true or not – physical violence against women (cis or trans) even by women (cis or trans) is unacceptable.” What’s astonishing is that anyone following the debate would know this was a brave thing for her to say." (continues)

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/04/madness-our-gender-debate-where-feminists-defend-slapping-60-year-old

NeurotrashWarrior · 20/11/2018 20:20

Re joss prior.

No, just discussing period poverty hun. You experienced that hun?

Dragon3 · 20/11/2018 20:20

What on earth is Joss Prior going on about? There was no hatred and bigotry on WH today or yesterday. From any of their contributors. Strong disagreement, yes.

Also, surely tagging individuals and accusing them in this way is defamatory?

KatVonGulag · 20/11/2018 20:30

I think the only way they got such influence was by making sure there was no debate.

They bully. They harass. They smear.

theOtherPamAyres · 20/11/2018 20:47

Who will hold the Trans lobby to account?

Not the government - the government is too invested in trans ideology (providing grants, consultancies and funding for training, as well as outsourcing trans polices and directives).

Not academia - the funders of research are too invested in backing 'gender/queer' perspectives and suppressing dissenters

That leaves (1) the press and other media....slowly, slowly unpicking and unpacking here and there and (2) the people affected - women, parents etc - gathering evidence and kicking back.

You would expect the people to have benefitted from public investment and the patronage of government, to be open, transparent and accountable. Instead, they hide. It is outrageous.

I really hope that Woman's Hour and the rest hold the government's feet to the fire over their choice of partners, and the widespread dissemination of a dud belief system.

LemonJello · 20/11/2018 20:59

Someone should maybe break it to Joss that Wonens hour is covering this topic all week. I wonder what the body count will be by Friday?

Grauniad · 20/11/2018 21:07

Well, zero, we all hope. But the frenzied shouts of ‘You’re driving people to suicide’ do concern me. They go right against Samaritan guidelines.

R0wantrees · 20/11/2018 21:21

They go right against Samaritan guidelines.

There has been a blanket failure by Trans rights charities, organisations and prominant spokespeople to understand, take seriously and follow Samaritans' guidelines.

Its deeply irresponsible and very concerning.

LondonPainter · 21/11/2018 00:20

Just listened to this. Helen and Jane were both 👌🏼
Will be sharing widely

CaptainWarbeck · 21/11/2018 06:31

Seeing as so many men were shocked by the #metoo movement, is it possible that men who transition are just genuinely surprised by their experience of suddenly feeling vulnerable as a transwoman? They have no concept of the fact that women deal with similar societal vulnerability every day, and so see themselves as suddenly the most oppressed of all.

I mean, ideally they could then listen, understand, empathise and work with women but then the male privilege they've been raised to have probably prohibits that.

Zeugma · 21/11/2018 09:41

But yesterday we had the supreme irony of Bex Stinson proclaiming their solidarity with women, their support of women and their identification with women while refusing to appear live on Womans Hour and talk to two of the very women they claim be so at one with

I’m not having any of it. The work has been going on quietly, stealthily and utterly ruthlessly behind the scenes, with HUGE success. Now they see that people are finally starting to realise just
what’s happening, tactics have changed to ‘oh, we’re so frightened, we’re so oppressed, we’re so threatened, we fear for our lives.’

Yeah, right.

Budgieinaberet · 21/11/2018 10:01

I hope when they discuss sport they have some top sports women. That would peak a few people.
Nicola Adams how far would she get fighting a TW ?