Woman's Hour Tues 20/11/18 "Why is the current debate about sex and gender so often called “toxic” - we hear from @Bex_Stinson and @helenlewis"

[MrsSnippyPants]

twitter.com/BBCWomansHour/status/1064804876327235584

Almost chickened out of listening coz it would make me too angry but I'm so glad I'm tuning in. Phew!

Helen brilliantly illustrating the conflict I feel between what-may-be-good-for-an-individual* and how-this-negatively-impacts-on-women and that it is possible to hold both those points of view...

*based on close experiences of people I have known from very young and have transitioned as adults

it's about contexts. It's truthful in the right context. And truth is important.

JG's position is pretty clear, but she's hosting the arguments brilliantly and giving space to both sides of the argument. Thank you Jane. I imagine it's a difficult line to tread (and dangerous, in the BBC.)

That was one of the best pieces I've heard on this. Lots of really interesting points raised and covered clearly.

What I got from Bex is "let's dismantle safeguarding, because it hurts the feelings of a minority group who are so fragile that they can't be in the same studio with someone who disagrees with them".
And that's supposed to be a healthy inclusive approach?
Jane Garvey is handling this very well.

I like Helen's position as not too hard line, feels quite close to how I feel

I think Helen has shifted off the fence. .

I respect that she is trying to walk the line of not trying to hurt feelings, while at the same time acknowledging that women are being constantly told not to hurt feelings and to be nice.

She outlined the problems well and it's a good start for Radio 4 listeners. Brava.

The deadnaming thing was a bit

I suppose she was saying it's transphobic if it is deliberately used to be hurtful. Whereas I think 'deadnaming' is essential in some situation to be clear about who a person is and the motives for what they do.

As long as you don't label and dismiss all incidences of the latter as being the former then perhaps....

Brilliant discussion. Helen Lewis was clear, assertive and took no prisoners while being prepared to criticise some things (ie dead naming) that she wasn't happy with. On the back of deadnaming she immediately highlighted the issues about crime and Karen White - so a very skilled performance.

How can you relisten - do you have to wait for iradio?

Bex Stinson was pre-recorded last time on WH too (when Dr Nic was on). Evidently can't handle being put on the spot. Very telling, that. Yet again it's clear why the #nodebate mantra is hammered home ad nauseam.

As Sally Hines proved yesterday - as soon as this twaddle is exposed to rational discourse it all implodes in a cloud of incoherent nonsense.

Wow! That went well. JG did a great job. She absolutely gets it. The difference between the WH piece just before the consultation closed and WH journalism this week is astounding.

Bex, I think, said or implied that not sharing a platform on this issue is Stonewall policy. Not just a Bex thing. Did I understand that correctly?

Dragon, well if so, that's even worse!

Interesting that they're now doing an item about periods.

I'm sure most people listening to that will see the inconsistency of Bex Stinson claiming how frightened transwomen are to speak, whilst saying no one ever listens to us, whilst the whole world is very much aware of how the trans ideology is ploughing through everything.

And people like Bex, who are supposed to represent LGBT in the most famous, and foremost LGBT organisation in the world, going into schools, advising governments and institutions, saying on national radio that they are frightened of going into the studio to talk to Jane Garvey is clearly nonsense. No one believes it.

If that's going to be the next argument for dismantling safeguards and accessing women and children, it's going to last about five seconds.

And back to parenting.

Nicely linked to the very female experience of periods.
Good to hear young people openly talking about it.
Toilets and all.

Subtle and effective, relevant to the trans issue.

Can you imagine if a religious person refused to do a live interview because they 'didn't feel safe' in the face of tough questions about their beliefs.

Zeugma I'll have another listen when they put it up later and try to catch the quote. That would indeed reflect badly on Stonewall.

I am beginning to think that WH have spent some time behind the scenes exploring the boundaries of what they can and can't say, how to approach these issues, and drawing up a plan of action.

It's too late for the consultation but let's face it, so many people (public and private) have only just begun to wake up to this.

Better late than never.

Yes there's gaps that need filling but that's what the mn feminist chat boards are for...

Waves at Jane.

Love how they have gone to periods and now Harriet Tubman - still have not listened tot the beginning but caught the last bit of Helen Lewis - thought she was great -

Then

Women leaders

periods...

And now Harriett Tubman.

What a great WH. Fantastic!

'm sure most people listening to that will see the inconsistency of Bex Stinson claiming how frightened transwomen are to speak, whilst saying no one ever listens to us, whilst the whole world is very much aware of how the trans ideology is ploughing through everything.

It's astonishing really. Trans ideologists have the support of government, the major political parties, large charities, international agencies, big businesses. Despite this we're supposed to believe trans people are the most marginalised and oppressed people who have ever lived in the entire history of the planet.

I can't claim to be an expert in marginalised and oppressed people, but it seems to me that in general they don't have massive amounts of support in the private and public sector. Rather the opposite, hence the reason they're marginalised and oppressed.

Exactly Wheezy. very clever sandwiching...

Brilliant move