Woman's Hour Tues 20/11/18 "Why is the current debate about sex and gender so often called “toxic” - we hear from @Bex_Stinson and @helenlewis"

[MrsSnippyPants]

twitter.com/BBCWomansHour/status/1064804876327235584

I think Helen was very interesting - very smart and articulate and covered so much ground.

I would be interested though in her personal opinion on how this issue can be resolved. It would have been great to hear her against Bex 'I am a woman because I feel like a woman'.

I'm not sure that this can resolved adequately (so that the issue doesn't rear its head again) if we approach from perspective of politeness.

The whole conflation of TWAW should never have been allowed to happen. Women's rights were given away by a small closed group of mainly men who found it preferable to allowing same sex marriage. Unpicking this mess is going to upset some people who were falsely sold a lie that they could change sex.

Vulnerable people with crippling dysphoria need to be protected from discrimination and I think medical treatment can be justified in some cases but i don't think this whole unholy mess can be unpicked without saying some uncomfortably truths (Bex you are not, will never be and nobody really sees you as such.. sorry, now let's move on)

Jane Garvey is magnificent!

Thank you Jane

Bex, I think, said or implied that not sharing a platform on this issue is Stonewall policy. Not just a Bex thing. Did I understand that correctly?

That's the impression I got. If so then very bizarre. If you are promoting a new ideology, a new way to understand what it means to be a woman or a man then surely you should be willing to discuss it.

I do like to listen to these interviews a couple of times.
This helps me to identify what gets the most attention and what gets brushed aside.
MN threads are the excellent study notes.

JG is having to bite her tongue an awful lot with this series. The spokesperson for Stonewall said that they didn't feel safe doing a live discussion at the BBC because they might be attacked. So in the one sentence we have (a) someone who doesn't understand what the point of being a spokesperson is and (b) insulting and casting slurs on JG's employers.
I hope JG is having a little lie-down now!
Loved that the trans debate was followed up by a discussion on periods. None of the feelz, just "this is what biology does to my body".

"That is a decision that Stonewall has made very clearly, that we're not going to share our platform."

@ 10.07

wheezy2 agree agree agree.

If Stinson (oh the irony of a patriarchal name) is the best Stonewall can send in to bat for them then they really don't have a leg to stand on. If i got it right the argument is "if a transphobic hears a trans person live on radio then that will enrage the transphobic person to such a degree that they will immediately turn on any trans people within range " So by not engaging in open debate Stonewall is "protecting " the people who they claim are marginalised and ignored by the rest of society and who Stonewall have pledged to be a voice for. It's a very quiet voice , and a very weak argument, if it can't even bring itself to join in a three minute debate on a polite radio 4 programme.

The thing is, we all know that Bex doesn't really feel unsafe, don't we? How many instances do we have of trans women being physically assaulted by women? Rough estimate: none.

On the other hand, how many examples do we have of self-identified trans women assaulting women? Loads and loads.

So Bex pretending to feel unsafe is an utterly pathetic, transparent and dishonest strategy. It is so striking once again that TRAs have no shame at all.

I was really pleased that Helen Lewis spoke about non-believers being shunned as heretics (my paraphrase).

That is what it's all about. That is why this 'debate' is 'toxic'.

It is not a debate. It is driving out heresy, making people publicly recant their views and enforcing ideology.

I suspect people found the debate pretty toxic during the Spanish Inquisition too.

Well, too little too late is better than nothing I suppose.

I'm cynical though, and very much expect (in the name of "balance") WH next week will discuss how TWAW no debate, and feature the fantastic joy of transing your 4 year old child...

Well serf there is no unseeing and no unknowing once the truth is learned. Even if they go back to emotivism, mantras and lies, listeners will be less inclined to unquestioningly swallow it.

Thank you for finding the Stonewall quote jellyfrizz.

Well. There is so much wrong with Stonewall refusing to share a platform to discuss this topic that I don't know where to begin.

They received 665K from government sources in 2017 and are involved in schools all over the country. Of course they should discuss this.

They are trying to redefine over half of the population in a way that will reduce our rights and protections. The onus is on Stonewall to convince everyone that this is the right way forward. It very much is a debate, whether they like it or not.

The thing is, we all know that Bex doesn't really feel unsafe, don't we
That is a very astute observation Hack.

If you are promoting a new ideology, a new way to understand what it means to be a woman or a man then surely you should be willing to discuss it.

Exactly that, herFemaleness! It is totally unconvincing.

It is so striking once again that TRAs have no shame at all.

So true. I've become so accustomed to all the barefaced lies that pretending to be frightened of Helen Lewis barely registered.

I was glad HL was incensed by that and let everyone know.

I think that if you want to hear a discussion about a political or ideological issue on your radio/tv show that you should only include people who are going to turn up.

If Bex Stinson is not willing to discuss with even a moderate on this issue (which Helen Lewis is) then Bex Stinson shouldn't be involved. Stonewall either has to bear the questions and consequences of their actions or they get left out of the conversation, tough shit.

Why not ask Jane Fae and actually bring up the topic of Fae's support for extreme porn and their misogynist and dismissive view of women ("eggshell skulls").

Or ask Shon Fae and bring up "enjoy your erasure" and their words to young people encouraging early sexual activity.

Ask Sarah Brown and bring up "suck my balls", their manipulation of Cambridge Council into breaking equality law and disenfranchising women, as well as their gross behaviour towards Julie Bindel.

Fgs ask Susie Green and actually bring up, well everything she has done, from taking a child to Thailand at 15 for elective genital surgery illegal in this country and then laughing about it on tv, to encouraging parents into unethical treatment by a doctor reprimanded for running an illegal practice, to her organisation being barred from further contact with a child after they colluded with a parent in the forced transitioning of that child.

Ask Lily Madigan and... well let Madigan speak for themselves, that's all the exposure they need really to show how utterly fucked up their behavior and views are.

So Bex is complaining on the one hand that trans voices can’t be heard over the deafening and relentless transphobia in the media. But at the same time adamant that Stonewall will not share a platform or discuss the issue.
So which is it? Can’t speak but you want to, or you won’t speak because no debate?

It's time the media stopped letting these people control the whole discussion from the language to who is allowed to be included. It's time they were treated like everyone else and faced scrutiny and consequences.

jellyfrizz Thanks for checking. If true, that's very worrying. So the organisation that has rendered the term 'trans' meaningless by including everyone from crossdressers to transsexuals and demands self ID for these groups has the official line that they won't discuss this face to face with anyone who has reservations about the whole thing?
And we are the bigots?
Excuse me if I'm suspicious of their motives.

"That is a decision that Stonewall has made very clearly, that we're not going to share our platform."
When Ruth the head of stonewall went on WH (after Johnny Best organised the petition) - she said something like 'we don't recognise that there are conflicting rights' and 'stonewall will not host this discussion'.
But this quote from Bex is in a new league of #nodebate. I have heard stonewall people at least three times on WH talking about this general issue and they are always separate from the other guests. It's pathetic and I can't see it going down well with WH listeners.

Radio is an excellent medium for this isn’t it?

Now available: www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00017sd