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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harassment of children in legal red light zone in Holbeck

226 replies

LaserShark · 14/11/2018 18:01

I’ve just read an article posted in a feminist group I’m part of on FB. It’s a Daily Mail article, detailing the harassment of young children in Holbeck where the legal red light zone is. Men offering parents money to rape their children. Most shockingly, a grandmother pushing a buggy with a four month old baby was offered money for an hour alone with the baby.

I can’t get the article out of my head. I don’t live a million miles away (thankfully not close) and it makes the these depraved men seem so much more real. I can’t understand how anyone could defend this legal zone - there has been a murder, rapes, sexual assault and it sounds like a free for all for all kinds of terrible men with monstrous appetites. And neither the council nor the police seem willing to help or even acknowledge the festering horror they have created, or allowed to exist openly. Somehow they have empowered these sick, twisted fuckers to feel able to ask to rape children in broad daylight; so pornsick and warped that they imagine this to be reasonable or likely or simply get a thrill from the violation of frightening and upsetting women and children by voicing their hideous thoughts. What is happening and why is no one acting to stop it?

OP posts:
ThrownMuse · 15/11/2018 21:02

The book offers a very solid critique of exactly those concerns.

I didn't say it was promoting sex work, but examining it, and its written by two sex workers.

This book is written by two women with first hand experience: I fail to see how this is off.

deepwatersolo · 15/11/2018 21:06

Call me a tinfoil hatter but sometimes I get the impression that there is a Reflex in Middle class people to stop any discussion about the policies that force working class women into prostitution, and making it all about how to best manage said prostitution (ideally without criminalizing the —middle class husband or brother or father— customer.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 15/11/2018 21:08

Tell you what ThrownMuse, you go away and read Bindel's Pimping of Prostitution and come back with a detailed critique, and then I'll read your recommendation and do likewise. What do you say?

FermatsTheorem · 15/11/2018 21:09

And we have women on this thread with first hand experience of sex work who favour the Nordic model.

My understanding of carceral feminism is that it comes from the same school of dismissiveness as white feminism. It argues that when feminists call for legal sanctions and custodial sentences for rapists, domestic abusers, pimps, people traffickers, those feminists are in fact acting as unwitting shills for the right wing state-sanctioned "prison industrial" complex. We should (according to this model) favour restorative justice, in which the man says "I'm vewy vewy sowwy" in front of, I dunno, a worker's committee or some such, and everyone says "see, he's a jolly good chap and regrets his previous actions," and off he toddles.

As practiced, for instance, by the SWP (see scandal over female SWP member's sexual abuse being dealt with in house with a rap over the knuckles for the abusers, rather than by calling the police).

Like I said, it puts penises before abused women, and is a total crock of shit.

Do not make the mistake of htinking that because someone disagrees with you, they are ill-informed. Some of us have read round the subject, and still think the notion of carceral feminism is a fig leaf used to cover up male violence.

deepwatersolo · 15/11/2018 21:10

If the writers didn‘t examine the particular policies that systemically forces women into prostitution it does not seem particularly helpful to make women‘s lives substantially better, that is all.

ResistanceIsNecessary · 15/11/2018 21:19

I always quote the fabulous Fiona Broadfoot in these situations:

If prostitution is the only viable way that a woman can feed her kids, then why don't we try giving her food and help rather than expecting her to stuff a cock in her mouth to get it?

Binglebong · 15/11/2018 21:24

Contact journalists and put them in to the story. You'll need to see who does investagetive reporting.maybe Stacey Dooley if you want to go down the tv route (for the universal credit - she won't touch the massive trans element if West Yorkshire Police and it is relevant given the "crimes" they waste time investigating). Not sure who for print.

Binglebong · 15/11/2018 21:26

Sorry - that was aimed at deepwatersolo. Later posts weren't showing.

TrashyTerf · 15/11/2018 21:43

People just don't care. I posted this in chat and it sank without a trace.

HelenaDove · 15/11/2018 23:09

@deepwatersolo Im donning my tin foil hat and sitting next to you on the bench.

off to bump the Chat thread.

Socrates11 · 16/11/2018 00:21

Amongst other things, the CEASE 2018 conference yesterday in Westminster, ran a panel discussion with people from Leeds and Ipswich to compare different approaches to street prostitution.

The thing that stood out for me about Holbeck, the managed zone in Leeds, was how small the actual zone is but how constant problems are found in adjacent areas. Such as school children being propositioned, residents bring threatened, great quantities of condom and drug paraphernalia litter strewn about, sex happening in the surrounding streets near people's homes. This is before acknowledging the increase in trafficked young women.

Not only is prostitution problematic for the people doing it, it is not good for the wider community. Holbeck appears a community under seige.

Fiona Broadfoot (on the panel) was trafficked into prostitution at 15 (average starting age is 12 ffs) and her 17 year old cousin was murdered in 1995. Broadfoot made a heart felt plea for lives to be saved. Later stating - 'It is not sex and it is not work'.

I'd like to know more about the Leeds council meeting outcomes but that councillor speech earlier was bloody brilliant.

Finally Ipswich almost seemed to good to be true. Although it took the murder of five young women to get the political will and resources to solve the problem...there are apparently two UEA evaluations of the strategy used that I need to track down.

This shit needs to be stopped. All the justification for prostitution cannot mitigate against the vast, sickening harms being done.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 16/11/2018 13:53

Thanks Socrates

HelenaDove · 16/11/2018 14:27

UN poverty expert says UK policies inflict unnecessary misery

LONDON (16 November, 2018) – The UK Government’s policies and drastic cuts to social support are entrenching high levels of poverty and inflicting unnecessary misery in one of the richest countries in the world, a UN human rights expert said today.

“The United Kingdom’s impending exit from the European Union poses particular risks for people in poverty, but the Government appears to be treating this as an afterthought,” the UN Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights, Philip Alston, said at the end of a 12-day visit to the country.

Almost all studies have shown that the UK economy will be worse off after Brexit. Consequences for inflation, real wages, and consumer prices will drive more people into poverty unless the Government takes action to shield those most vulnerable and replaces current EU funding for combatting poverty, he said.

In the United Kingdom, 14 million people, a fifth of the population, live in poverty. Four million of these are more than 50 percent below the poverty line, and 1.5 million are destitute, unable to afford basic essentials. After years of progress, poverty is rising again, with child poverty predicted to rise 7 percent between 2015 and 2022, homelessness is up 60 percent since 2010, and food banks rapidly multiplying. “In the fifth richest country in the world, this is not just a disgrace, but a social calamity and an economic disaster, all rolled into one,” Alston said.

“During my visit I have spoken with people who depend on food banks and charities for their next meal, who are sleeping on friends’ couches because they are homeless and don’t have a safe place for their children to sleep, who have sold sex for money or shelter, children who are growing up in poverty unsure of their future,” Alston said. “I’ve also met young people who feel gangs are the only way out of destitution, and people with disabilities who are being told they need to go back to work or lose benefits, against their doctor’s orders,” Alston said.

Successive governments have presided over the systematic dismantling of the social safety net in the United Kingdom. The introduction of Universal Credit and significant reductions in the amount of and eligibility for important forms of support have undermined the capacity of benefits to loosen the grip of poverty. “British compassion for those who are suffering has been replaced by a punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous approach,” Alston said.

“As a ‘digital by default’ benefit, Universal Credit has created an online barrier between people with poor digital literacy and their legal entitlements,” Alston said. “And the ‘test and learn’ approach to the rollout treats claimants like guinea pigs and can wreak havoc in real peoples’ lives.”

Local governments in England have seen a 49 percent real-terms reduction in Government funding since 2010, with hundreds of libraries closed, community and youth centres shrunk and underfunded, and public spaces and buildings including parks and recreation centres sold off.

“I was told time and again about important public services being pared down, the loss of institutions that would have previously protected vulnerable people, social care services that are at a breaking point, and local government and devolved administrations stretched far too thin,” Alston said. “The voluntary sector has done an admirable job of picking up the slack for those government functions, but that work does not relieve the Government of its obligations”.

“The Government has remained in a state of denial, and ministers insisted to me that all is well and running according to plan,” Alston said. “Despite making some reluctant tweaks to basic policy, there has been a determined resistance to change in response to the many problems which so many people at all levels have brought to my attention.”

During his visit, the Special Rapporteur traveled to nine cities in England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and met with people affected by poverty, civil society, front line workers, and officials from a range of political parties in local, devolved and UK Governments.

“Government policies have inflicted great misery unnecessarily, especially on the working poor, on single mothers struggling against mighty odds, on people with disabilities who are already marginalised, and on millions of children who are locked into a cycle of poverty from which many will have great difficulty escaping,” Alston said.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 16/11/2018 17:05

Austerity Britain was in breach of four UN human rights agreements relating to women, children, disabled people and economic and social rights. “If you got a group of misogynists in a room and said how can we make this system work for men and not for women they would not have come up with too many ideas that are not already in place,” he said.

deepwatersolo · 16/11/2018 17:13

This is precisely the point Lisa Muggeridge makes. Working class women and particularly single mothers are hit hardest, in contravention to the rule of law, and nobody who has power to change it gives a shit, including what these days identifies as ‚the Left‘.

Binglebong · 16/11/2018 17:35

Who's that quote from Tallulah?

Socrates11 · 16/11/2018 19:08

It's criminal what the Tory Government has done to Britain under the guise of austerity. Absolutely bloody criminal. From Stephanie Bottrill (RIP) to the thousands of children going hungry or the lack of care for mentally ill and elderly. Bloody shameful.

HelenaDove · 16/11/2018 21:51

The full UN statement.

www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=23881&LangID=E

deepwatersolo · 16/11/2018 21:59

The Guardian has articles about the UN verdict, including an opinion piece bemoaning that ‚it took the UN to make this publically acknowledged‘. Which is quite ironic considering Lisa Muggeridge told them for 8 years and repeatedly stated that the Guardian actively prevented discussion on this.

traceyracer · 16/11/2018 22:21

something I've noticed but it seems every thread I've read on here about the prostitution industry the source is a link from the daily mail.

surely if the situation is as bad as the daily fail says it is then more credible sources would be easy to find?

HelenaDove · 16/11/2018 22:22

in early 2015 they were deleting comments by social housing tenants who objected to a CEO of a HA getting a CBE when their tenants had been waiting months and months for urgent repairs.

MistressFunbox · 16/11/2018 22:29

Only the right wing press will report this stuff (normally from a moral panic perspective) because it dosent fit with the guardian s world view- sex work is work etc.

The daily mail is no more reputable than the guardian. They both print news selectively. What you mean by reputable is "agrees more with my world view"

Read all the press, listen to stories from locals. seek the truth.

LassWiADelicateAir · 17/11/2018 14:21

surely if the situation is as bad as the daily fail says it is then more credible sources would be easy to find?

Are you new to the idea of Google?

There are plenty of other sources about how bad prostitution in general is. Try
The (Glasgow) Herald, The Telegraph, loads of articles and books by Julie Bindel and Kat Banyard. The Sun, The Mirror, The Telegraph, Inews, BBC have all reported how grim Leeds is.

And if you don't believe them or they are not sufficiently lefty for you this website is created by and for the people living in the hell hole of Leeds, Holbeck.

saveoureyes.co.uk/

Or Google Cllr Sarah Field

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