'Gender' education in year 9 at my daughter's school

[earlydoors42]

Hi. My daughter is in year 9 and told me they have been learning about 'gender' in their Skills For Life class. I rang the school to ask about it. The teacher in charge said he only took over the role in September and seemed interested in why I was asking, and my perspective.

He said they were looking at whether things were feminine or masculine or whether those were stereotypes (sounded good to me) and teaching that biological sex was separate to gender (also sounded good). I told him a bit about my issues with the Stonewall / Mermaids type 'education' and about the Butterfly programme - that the little boy was told that certain toys were 'for girls' and ended up thinking he must be a girl - rather than being told it was ok for boys to play with these things.

Teacher sounded in agreement with all this. He said he got his lesson plans from Barnardos. I wasn't sure what their info was like. He has now sent me the lesson plans and I do have some issues with them.

They start off talking about gender stereotypes, like he had explained. But then move on to "what makes up a person's identity?' which includes the "genderbread person" - with

• identity (gender in their head, which is a spectrum)
• gender expression (how you present yourself)
• attraction (who you are attracted to - males, females or nobody)
• biological sex

I think overall it is quite a basic covering of the topic and not too bad... but I do have issues with a couple of things. For example saying someone male may have a masculine gender expression (wear 'masculine' clothes) but have a female 'gender identity'. How could they explain that without reverting to stereotypes? How on earth can a male, who dresses as a male, think they are female, and how is this taught as FACT at school?

It also says that some trans people have surgery "to change their sex to match their gender". Not actually possible!

I think I am just after some advice as to whether to pursue this or just let it go, as it is only 2 lessons, and my daughter knows enough to ignore it (she just put her pen down and didn't participate) and to discuss with me. Or should I send some info in to the teacher? Should I try to explain why I think it is wrong to teach this as fact?

I think that genderbread person is meant to be deliberately confusing and is designed to put people on the back foot.

It's kinder, simpler and objectively factual to teach kids that gender stereotypes are just that- stereotypes- and that there's nothing wrong with wearing clothes or indulging in the hobbies associated with the opposite sex.

I don't have any advice but am following with interest. My kids are much younger but they were having a argument conversation about what things boys and girls can and can't do.

My youngest (DD) was saying that boys can't wear make up or have long hair. This seems quite instilled in her despite me telling her otherwise, but she is quite stubborn and is getting a lot of gender stereotyped shit from other places, and I do think that if I keep on, she will change her view (she is 5).

My 8 year old DS was saying that of course boys can do those things. I don't know if it's because he is a bit older and has had the message from his parents for longer about it, or he is quite sensitive, but he was adamant about it. We carried on the conversation and I said 'wearing make up doesn't make you an actual girl, having short hair doesn't make you an actual boy, and you can do those things regardless of whether you have a willy or a noonie (I know, sorry!)'

I'm not saying I am some great gender neutral parent, my kids are pretty gender conforming and largely fall into the stereotypes.

Anyway, to get to the point, my DS seems to have good strong ideas (at least in theory) about gender stereotypes being silly. But I am worried that once he gets older and starts getting this gender identity crap in schools, he will get confused about it all. He is very open to the idea that girls and boys don't have to do certain things, but am worried that this will then get mixed in with an idea that this means that they are transgender, that there is something 'wrong' that needs 'correcting'.

I guess I will just keep on reiterating that what you like does not mean affect whether you are an actual boy or girl. Sorry I have rambled there but it's just we had this conversation this morning and this thread made me think of it!

I would be appalled to find that bollocks ideology being indoctrinated into my child by stealth at school.

So now we know it's Girl Guides, NSPCC, Bernardos- have these creeps silently got to every fucking children's org there is?

I'd be so fucked off. As fucked off as if I found out a teacher told my kids said that Pentacostal Christianity is the one true religion or some such thing.

They have no business talking that shit is schools.

In year 9 I already fought fierece battles with my (catholic) Religion teacher on abortion, marriage... In my family, politics were a constant topic of debate, so I knew my arguments.

Not sure what type your daughter is (debater?), but it would make sense for you to discuss these issues at home, anyway, and could contribute what she gets from it to the discussion at school. That might teach her peers more than any prepackaged content of one sort or the other.

If this were my DC's school, I would be reassured if they were being taught the facts that biological sex and sexuality are different to the idea of gender identity, and they were given the opportunity to have a critical and supportive discussion around the idea of gender identity and what it means for how we live our lives, i.e no accusations of bigotry or phobia when talking about the protections related to sex, and that biological sex cannot change either through surgery, hormones or personal feelings.
I do think young people have the critical skills to make their own decisions about how they engage with this topic, but the bottom line is understanding what biological sex means, in terms of health & safety and equality. Gender identity & expression is debated all day long on the internet so there will be a range of views amongst any class. Some might call it a spectrum.

What next? "Some people think the Earth is flat..."

How on earth can a male, who dresses as a male, think they are female, and how is this taught as FACT at school?

Could you discuss this with the teacher as an issue of beliefs and religion? If a boy thinks he is a girl, that requires a belief in a gendered soul which is separate from the body. This makes gender ideology a religious belief which should not be taught as fact, since many of us don't share that particular religious belief.

It also says that some trans people have surgery "to change their sex to match their gender". Not actually possible!

If the material says that, you should definitely challenge it since it is scientifically incorrect. Children should not be indoctrinated with lies as part of their education.

Yes, they should move 'gender identity' into RE at school, so pupils understand that they are learning about other people's beliefs, not something akin to sex, sexism, or sexuality.

FFS Stonewall/Gendered Intelligence/etc should just own up and get registered as a churches of genderism.

From Barnadoes resources for professionals:

'LGBTQ reading list
The resources below may be helpful for young people exploring LGBTQ issues. These titles are provided as recommended reading by Stonewall.'
www.barnardos.org.uk/what_we_do/our_work/lgbtq/professionals/lgbtq-reading-list.htm

Press release
Barnardo’s makes Stonewall’s Top 100 Employers list for fourth year
Release Date: 31 Jan 2018

Barnardo’s has been listed in Stonewall’s Top 100 Employers for LGBT equality for the fourth year running.
www.barnardos.org.uk/news/press_releases.htm?ref=128082

some recent threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3416022-Stonewall-getting-pelters-on-Twitter

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3355712-Aimee-Challenor-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3413125-Anger-as-gender-neutral-toilets-introduced-at-primary-school-without-parents-knowing

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3404565-Is-the-problem-with-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/3384045-Petition-to-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384455-Ruth-Hunt-Stonewall-do-not-and-will-not-acknowledge-that-there-is-a-conflict-between-trans-rights-and-sex-based-women-s-rights

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3366278-Ruth-Hunt-Stonewall-CEO

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3385418-Stonewall-Champion-School-HT-asks-what-safeguarding-concerns

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3366612-Stonewall-100-per-cent-white-95-per-cent-male

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384407-Times-letter-petition-STONEWALL-CRITICISED-undermining-women-s-sex-based-rights-and-protections-Jonny-Best-et-al

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3397090-Which-companies-charities-and-public-organisations-are-supporting-Stonewalls-position

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3373458-girlguiding-expels-leaders-who-question-trans-policy

See also NSPCC threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_facebook_live/3343961-Facebook-Live-about-talking-to-kids-about-staying-safe-from-abuse-with-NSPCC

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3353658-AIBU-to-be-shocked-that-the-NSPCC-cancelled-their-Facebook-Live-session-with-Mumsnetters-because-they-didnt-like-the-questions-That-they-cant-explain-why-they-arent-putting-children-in-danger

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3350778-My-letter-to-NSPCC

watching with interest - ds is in y9 and there was a note on the calendar about it being the y9 diversity day next week but there hasn't been any communication with parents about it - and all I've managed to get out of ds is that there are going to be a number or workshops and they had to say which their top 3 would be.

The only one he could remember choosing was to do with musical diversity... Oh and a 'I haven't done the day yet so I don't know what it's about'. No idea whether or not the other sessions will have anything to do with lgbt+ stuff - and if so, whether or not he's embarrassed by it so didn't want to mention it or if it's just another form that has been filed in the 'whatever' section of his brain so he really doesn't care or if it's just falling on day where he has 2 pe lessons so is pissed off that he's missing out on his favourite lessons!

... and they recommend the Brighton & Hove guidance!

The thing that annoys me most about this (ok maybe not most, but it's up there), is the change of the language around expression.

Where has "Self Expression" gone?

All the language around this really removes individual expression. It's all about your "Gender Expression" which then would need to comply with societal rules.

This on top of kids being uniformed from age 2 in some cases in the UK really boxes our kids in.

Where is the room for self expression? I haven't seen anybody talking in those terms for a long time.

Sorry if that's a bit of a derail!

Isn't it alarming how the children's organisations, charities, etc are lining up like good little soldiers to get their 'woke' mark, whilst giving no thought whatsoever to safeguarding.

Same with identity. Why does it have to be "gender identity"?

Can we not just identify as an individual without it being based on societies expectations of genders?

I'd rather them not learn about gender at all really. My eldest is only 9, and hasn't come up with anything like this yet as far as I know.

What's the point of teaching them about gender as anything other than the stereotypes and societal expectations? People aren't (generally) a gender. We are individuals.

OK ok ok. I'll stop ranting about it now. sigh

The teacher in charge said he only took over the role in September and seemed interested in why I was asking, and my perspective.
Teacher sounded in agreement with all this. He said he got his lesson plans from Barnardos

These are key points.
A lot of PHSE modules will be based on lesson plans and resources from what are believed to be trusted sources.
They will have been approved.

See also, BISH
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3357713-BISH-proudly-supported-by

There is a woke army providing resources to teachers who are too busy to plan the lessons themselves. Nobody plans their own PSHE lessons. This is a massive issue.

To clarify I'm a teacher who has seen a lot of these resources

Candid Peel that Brighton and Hove guidance is a bit of a shocker

'The most important thing is to ask the young person what they need and want to happen. Under the Equality Act they have a right to lead on issues such as what name they go by, their clothing, the toilets and changing rooms they use and how much information they want to be shared with others.'

So while I agree that these young people need to be supported, how is it fair on others who DON'T want a person of the opposite sex in their toilets and changing rooms? How can the Equality Act be quoted here when SEX is a protected characteristic and a schoolchild will not have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. And anyway, why should gender reassignment trump sex?

How much info is to be shared with others? Surely safeguarding of vulnerable children comes into play here?

To clarify I'm a teacher who has seen a lot of these resources

Yes, so have I. And some of them are poor. What's especially concerning is that resources put out by 'name' organisations like Barnardos will be assumed to have some greater 'authenticity' when - as is clear repeatedly - they're using the same erroneous 'guidance' as all the rest.

DD 11 and DS 7 have an adult trans sibling. I wouldn't sweat it.

Claire Graham analyses the Allsorts and TransgenderTrends' schools' toolkits in the context of legislation & regulations:

May 2018 'Guardian article comparing Allsorts and Mermaids with TransgenderTrend's approach':
'Schools pulled into row over helping transgender children
As more teens come out as trans, experts clash over how schools should help'

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

Remember today is the deadline for the govt consultation on the SRE curriculum. Transgendertrend have guidance on their website.

I'm past caring if mine says something she has learned that I don't agree with I put her right.
It's up to you what you want your children to learn.

It's up to you what you want your children to learn.

Do you always know exactly what they're being told in school? Many people have no idea this is being taught at all. How are they supposed to deal with it if they don't even know it's happening?

Schools are not allowed to teach creationism, except in the context of it being a belief that some people hold. Why should the belief system of genderism be any different?