Great blog about being a trans inclusive feminist

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Here: alicenuttallbooks.wordpress.com/2018/11/04/why-i-am-a-trans-inclusive-feminist/

Enjoy!

I have said never said woman can’t feel uncomfortable with it - I’ve said the opposite, many many times.

So, many women feel uncomfortable, which you have acknowledged. Why should that discomfort not be factored into how situations are handled? Why is the comfort of the trans person more important?

He won't be taken to court, though, if it's been established in principle that nobody is allowed to ask if he has a GRC or not. Which is what trans activists are pushing for. If nobody is allowed to ask, and a penis is visible, the only option is to assume that he has a GRC, thus rendering the entire process pointless.

If you’ve been assaulted or flashed, you can report this to the police. If the police then visit this person, their ID and records will either state Female (holding a GRC) or Male (Not holding a GRC) so it’s quite easy for them to check really.

Earlywalker

I didn't say is because they want to watch the opposite sex undress.

I said because they want to get into their space.

Because their identity as the opposite sex isn't based on reality. It can't be. You can't identify as someone with a uterus and ovaries. All you can do is identify how you think someone with uterus and ovaries is. Which is a stereotype.

If that’s the case then why wouldn’t they just wear a padded bra and tape their penis back like drag acts?

Er, many of them do.

Now you're being deliberately obtuse. If a male human's penis is exposed in a women's changing room, and the standard is that nobody is allowed to ask his gender or if he has a GRC, then he will not and indeed cannot be arrested for flashing. Which is exactly the policy that trans activists are demanding.

their ID and records will either state Female (holding a GRC) or Male (Not holding a GRC) so it’s quite easy for them to check really.

No. You're wrong. You don't need a GRC to have "female" ID.

Your friend was a woman though early and that means they are in the biological group of people that rarely have fetishises they act out in pubic or assault or abuse people for their own ends.

If your friend feels uncomfortable using male spaces why are you making your whole argument about women and women’s spaces? I’m really confused by this, it’s not women stopping your friend feeling welcome in the men’s is it?

I think it’s a bit unfair to come out with the feminists on mumsnet are terrible meanies for repeatedly stating their individual viewpoints when the premise of the argument is that the feminists on mumsnet are terrible meanies, should accept this and either change their tune or stfu.

Isn’t that a good thing though? We’ve all been saying that sterilisation isn’t good as years down the line they may change their mind

Yes I agree. But the problem remains that while there isn’t any justification for segregation by gender, there is sometimes a need to distinguish biological sex.

I think this is a problem with the original 2004 act - in seeking to help trans people it glosses over a lot. It makes a few exceptions (eg sport), but the logic of the act doesn’t really hold up to close inspection.

Practically it achieved some valid purposes, and as long as it was only used by what you call genuine trans people it was fine. However it doesn’t really make sense.

Which is exactly the policy that trans activists are demanding.

Yes. The endgame is that flashing and voyeurism (forms of sexual abuse) in changing rooms and other intimate female spaces would be rendered non crimes.

So, many women feel uncomfortable, which you have acknowledged. Why should that discomfort not be factored into how situations are handled? Why is the comfort of the trans person more important?

I’ve said my opinion, I think open plan makes many woman uncomfortable, and I definitely think that should be abolished. I think the current GRC guidelines do a good job of distinguishing and should be abided by.

I do not think that preventing a trans person with a GRC certificate from getting changed in a closed cubicle within their desired sex changing rooms is really a threat and that the guidelines as they currently are, do not need to be changed to exclude any and all transgender people.

In answer to Earlywalker’s question, no I do not wish to share a changing room with a post op TW. Sarah Brown, Jane Fae and India Willoughby have had surgery and I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near them, let alone take my clothes off in their presence. The knowledge that there are Vile misogynistic post op TW like that, no matter how few, is enough to make me say no.

I have to say, I have an old friend who is a transman, though we've lost touch. If we were still in touch and I agreed more with gender identity as a concept I think I'd be a lot more invested in their access to the spaces they wanted to be in than that of transwomen, so it really is off that Early is so focused on the scenario that isn't directly to the benefit of their friend.

the whole if you get flashed at the police will find the perp and ask to see their GRC thing mean's you've already been flashed at

observe the rule about no men in areas where women are in a state of undress and bingo! you've just dramatically reduced the chances of those women getting flashed at

which is a good thing I would say

How are women supposed to know who is the 'real' trans person with a GRC?

I do not wish to share a changing room with a post op TW. Sarah Brown, Jane Fae and India Willoughby have had surgery and I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near them, let alone take my clothes off in their presence. The knowledge that there are Vile misogynistic post op TW like that, no matter how few, is enough to make me say no.

Same.

And yeah, in theory I could report any sexual assault, but unfortunately that does not then render me not-assaulted, since the police don't carry around the blinky memory wiping thingies from Men In Black.

My friend did not go through years of heartache, lose his whole family and try to kill himself cus he wanted to watch men undress.

Your friend is a female with a serious psychological condition which leads to severe depression. Not an entitled predatory person born and socialised as a male.

I do not think that preventing a trans person with a GRC certificate from getting changed in a closed cubicle within their desired sex changing rooms is really a threat

Can I ask what you're basing that on?

i’d be a lot more invested in their access to the spaces they wanted to be in than that of transwomen, so it really is off that Early is so focused on the scenario that isn't directly to the benefit of their friend.

No one is fighting to stop transmen coming in their spaces though, men don’t care (obviously) but I don’t think transmen are more important than transwoman, they both have gender dysphoria.

I think the motivations for transition for transmen and for transwomen on average may be quite different, particularly if we're using the Stonewall definition, which is what most orgs are using.

Again though, it comes back to, it appears that the majority of women don't consent to male people in our spaces. If men don't care, great, that's up to them to decide. But many women do, and that matters. I do not agree that it's acceptable to enforce a not at all genuine not-caring on women out of some asinine sense of "equality".

Your friend is a female with a serious psychological condition which leads to severe depression. Not an entitled predatory person born and socialised as a male.

Not all men are entitled and predatory. Not being allowed to be a man is what lead him to try to commit suicide, since he’s lived as a man he no longer suffers with depression.

men don’t care (obviously)

Oh I think they might, if females so blatantly took the piss as some MTFs and didn't bother to try to look male at all.

OK, when we reach the "not all men!" stage of this conversation then I officially run out of patience.

Not all men are entitled and predatory.

Don't twist people's words. Practice what you preach.