Great blog about being a trans inclusive feminist

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Here: alicenuttallbooks.wordpress.com/2018/11/04/why-i-am-a-trans-inclusive-feminist/

Enjoy!

And as you’re so clued up on Islam, you’ll know that academic scholars make up the group that create rulings within islam.

I’m really baffled by the idea that religious people are told what to believe and then just go ahead and believe it.

but UpstartCrow, given that we're all in violent agreement that disabled toilets etc shouldn't be co-opted for this, those mixed sex third spaces tend not to exist at the moment

Our hypothetical Muslim woman in Iran can also decide that the hijab isn't religiously mandated according to her own interpretation of the Koran and hadith, but I don't fancy her chances of getting the authorities to agree that her interpretation trumps theirs.

The key point, however, is that if any women are not OK with cocks in women's spaces then there should be no cocks in women's spaces. If as I suspect the majority of women are opposed to cocks in their spaces then it becomes your job to justify why their wishes should be overruled in favor of the wishes of a much smaller group of people.

I wish you luck with that. You're not doing very well so far.

easywalker the problem with mixed sex only is that you need to make it so secure it’s not worth doing. People start talking about floor to ceiling cubicles and open plan and don’t seem to ask WHY that security is needed? If you need to make a cube like Fort Knox, then the whole set up is wrong.

Additional mixed sex spaces as well as single sex? I’m fine with that, more family change rooms are grand.

But transwoman in women’s spaces for validation at the expense of safety for women and girls? No.

This is a mad thread.

A good proportion of the things Earlywalker is saying are things I see others say regularly here. She's anti self id, wants to see strong gatekeeping of single sex spaces where appropriate but disagrees with some people about what actually needs to be single sex. Hardly a TRA standpoint. Yet the tone of response to her is like she's an enemy invader to be caught out.

Lots of times I've read threads and halfway through I reconsider my opinion having seen others give viewpoints I hadn't considered or share life experiences alien to mine. It is one of the big draws of MN for me.

I am not one for saying women should be nice. I am one for saying if you want debate you won't get it if you take the line that the other participants must be evil or stupid if their starting position is not 100% the same as yours.

but we won’t do that and instead will fight to be inclusive of Muslim people’s oppression

Fighting oppression by making it harder for Muslim women to leave the house?

People start talking about floor to ceiling cubicles and open plan and don’t seem to ask WHY that security is needed? If you need to make a cube like Fort Knox, then the whole set up is wrong.

SUCH a good point.

It’s loke that other poster who wasn’t fussed about sleeping alongside a male guide leader at guide camp. She said she would just put on a pair of “sturdy pyjamas”.

Completely dismissing women’s concerns while at the same time recognising them and mitigating them for herself through the use of particular sleepwear.

This is a mad thread

I agree. It is a mad thread. I agree with Earlywalker about alot of things - my main difference is that she doesn’t seem to be aware of any changes to the status quo since 2004.

However, the stuff about Muslims is also a bit mad.

That’s very interesting. It certainly shows proves this is not just about the ‘stonewall trans.’ It is all transpeople.

No it isn't. It's about men. Weather they are trans or not is irrelevant.

It's really not a gotcha. Because even those women who are willing to accept Post op transwomen realise there is no way of telling.

How about you divide everything up into 'men that every possible woman would accept' and all the rest?

Cos that would work.

Also worth stating there is nothing in the Quran that says you must have gender segregation at all.

I don't think anyone is saying that Early is mad, bad or stupid. I think people have stated clearly where her thinking is muddled or wrong. No one has twisted what she has said, we are responding to her assumption based on faulty understanding of what self id means and whether or not we have de facto self id in the UK right now. I also see that she is feeling a little bit embattled now at having to answer so many questions posed by various posters, so I'm not going to contribute again to her that and I don't appreciate being patronised, but that's another story

It is a bit of a mad thread. But for me, is because Early can't logically justify what she's saying.

I understand that some women would accept post op transwomen. I don't understand the justification for that. Never have.

There are a lot of people arguing the inclusion angle who seem to have no clue that the vast majority of the group now identifying as transwomen still have fully functional male genitalia, and a substantial percentage have had no medical interventions at all and don't intend to have any. Which makes arguments odd and tedious, like arguing astronomy with someone whose knowledge stopped pre Copernicus.

datan I think the understanding is quite clear, being post operative is the only ‘proof’ to the eye that you are a ‘genuine’ trans person as opposed to a man just wanting to get in a woman’s space. To me personally, I think holding a GRC is enough to show you are ‘genuine’. Having seen someone close experience gender dysphoria from year 6 or so, I will never be of the opinion that some of you are that they are just a man in a dress/woman in boxers and that is mainly where opinions differ between me and you all on this subject.

No one has twisted what she has said
Afraid that’s not quite true is it.

But again, early, nobody is allowed to ask if someone has a GRC, so whether or not they have one is irrelevant in the changing room scenario.

The vast majority still have Male genitalia

Isn’t that a good thing though? We’ve all been saying that sterilisation isn’t good as years down the line they may change their minds. I think a lot of parents would encourage their children to leave their genitlas alone, doesn’t mean they are not experiencing gender dysphoria, doesn’t mean they don’t hate their genitals either.

My friend never froze his eggs, I said he should at the time but it meant a delay in starting things and he just wanted it all over. I think he regrets not doing that slightly now.

Also worth stating there is nothing in the Quran that says you must have gender segregation at all

Yet women do face restrictions which prevent not just them but also their children participating fully in society.

Historically arguing over religious doctrine tends to end badly. Helping people to participate and become part of wider society is a more effective way of breaking down barriers.

But the point is that under current law you need a GRC to be classed as that sex. A man can argue he is transgender but if is taken to court for flashing in a female space and is still classed as a man he has broken the law unless it’s a mixed sex facility.

Currently there is no law to prevent a man who doesn’t identify as transgender from peeing in your toilets either if there? I might be wrong there but I don’t think it’s actually classed as an offense.

Yet women do face restrictions which prevent not just them but also their children participating fully in society.

Agree, these were not spoken by the Quran though but by the same people who made the transgender statements... but apparently people don’t listen to them or follow them so I guess Muslim woman being forced into oppression is made up too!

You see the contradiction in going "well what if they don't have a penis" and then shifting straight over to "but actually it would be better if they did", right? I agree that not seeing a penis makes the situation potentially less alarming. I don't agree that it removes the sense of threat completely, given that the natal sex will still generally be obvious. I definitely don't see why you think that your feeling that you wouldn't mind finding yourself in either situation means that other women aren't allowed to feel differently, or why their feelings should matter less than yours.

Same sort of people sorry, not the exact same people!

datan I think the understanding is quite clear, being post operative is the only ‘proof’ to the eye that you are a ‘genuine’ trans person as opposed to a man just wanting to get in a woman’s space.

But that's exactly what they are! A man who really, really wants to get into a woman's space.

The only difference, is the motivation. And you having empathy for it, or not.

I can have sympathy for a man with gender dysphoria. But I know it doesn't make him a woman.

What it does make him is someone who believes a woman is a stereotype.

He won't be taken to court, though, if it's been established in principle that nobody is allowed to ask if he has a GRC or not. Which is what trans activists are pushing for. If nobody is allowed to ask, and a penis is visible, the only option is to assume that he has a GRC, thus rendering the entire process pointless.

*I can have sympathy for a man with gender dysphoria. But I know it doesn't make him a woman.

What it does make him is someone who believes a woman is a stereotype.*

If that’s the case then why wouldn’t they just wear a padded bra and tape their penis back like drag acts?

I do think that’s offensive, you saying that transwoman are just men wanting to get in a woman’s space. My friend did not go through years of heartache, lose his whole family and try to kill himself cus he wanted to watch men undress. It was utterly heartbreaking and to think that all trans people do it for one reason is naive.