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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Great blog about being a trans inclusive feminist

743 replies

spannablue · 05/11/2018 22:29

Here: alicenuttallbooks.wordpress.com/2018/11/04/why-i-am-a-trans-inclusive-feminist/

Enjoy!

OP posts:
LemonJello · 08/11/2018 23:06

I’m not an expert on any of these issues and I’m not claiming to be. Im simply stating my own personal opinion.

Absolutely fair enough.

I think most of the people you are debating with are experts on these issues though, and probably now have the equivalent of a degree based on time spent reading, researching and thrashing out the arguments on these boards Smile

MIdgebabe · 08/11/2018 23:07

You want us take a risk, to sacrifice ourselves, to attempt to prove that transwomen are no threat.

I’ll bet that Statistics do not show that gender defined ( aka unisex) bathrooms do not increase risk. Provide links please

It’s already proven. men and transwomen commit offences against woman at a much higher rate than women do.

The rate of violnece from men was deemed sufficient rational for sex based protections some of which are less about reducing thenpeobab8lity of violence and more about showing respect and providing dignity to women

Why should the standards be less for Transwomen?

merrymouse · 08/11/2018 23:09

if toilets were defined based on gender, it would be if you were a biological woman, or a transwoman you could use those facilities

Because...?

What do these groups have in common that mean they should share toilets?

In the absence of any other definition of gender, recognition of gender is an endorsement of sexist stereotypes.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 08/11/2018 23:09

earlywalker, you may want to step down from your high horse.

you said Who is going to have more interest in your body if you’re naked? A gay man or a lesbian?

what was the point of that lovely little comment if not to try to imply that lesbians are some kind of risk?

Avegemitesandwich · 08/11/2018 23:09

Earlywalker 98% of sexual offences are carried out by men. Ninety. Eight. Per cent.

That is a large part of the reason why we have sex segregated spaces. Why are you talking about lesbians attacking women?

Melanippe · 08/11/2018 23:09

the majority of woman are perfectly happy with the current status quo of transwoman using toilets

No, they really aren't. Well, they aren't if we're talking about trans women using women's facilities anyway. The whole thing about "trans women have used the women's loos for years and no one noticed or cared" is bullshit, sorry EarlyWalker but it really is. What happened until the more bonkers type of TRA came along was that women either knew and allowed them to use women's facilities or left until the trans woman had done what they needed to do and then went back.

On the subject of smear tests, trans men, when they have their check ups to ensure the testosterone they take isn't causing them to have various types of women's cancers, are also reminded to have a smear, so the change in language was emphatically not to encourage trans men to go for a smear.

OldCrone · 08/11/2018 23:11

There are huge issues surrounding Self ID but that is not currently law.

Earlywalker Are you aware that there was a UK government consultation on this which closed last month? And a Scottish government consultation earlier this year, which said they were proposing to do just that?

All the organisations which support transgender people (stonewall and other LGBT groups) are in favour of self ID. Are you really not aware of this?

MIdgebabe · 08/11/2018 23:12

Sorry, early, just picked up on the use of the word bathroom..are you American? Because my interpretation is based on the uk situation and law

Earlywalker · 08/11/2018 23:22

I’ll bet that Statistics do not show that gender defined ( aka unisex) bathrooms do not increase risk. Provide links please

Already have, please look back.

No not American, lived in the UK my whole life. Is bathroom not an English term?

I’m out now, I was happy to debate this with you all when it was respectful. Now it’s gone the usual way of twisting my words to paint me as some sort of homophobe. Ironic isn’t it? Considering how much you all hate being painted as transphobic.

Anyway. Thanks to those who kept it respectful and didn’t call me a man or similar. I have taken your opinions on board as always. We will never see fully eye to eye on this but I respect all of your opinions. If Self ID passes, I will be back on FWR on side. Fingers crossed it doesn’t.

CottonTailRabbit · 08/11/2018 23:22

How do I know whether the man in my gym changing room is "real trans" or "Stonewall trans"?

What do I do if he's making me feel uncomfortable?

What about my muslim friend? She goes to the gym too. What does she do if she goes into the changing room and sees a man in there?

How does it all work in practice for women?

merrymouse · 08/11/2018 23:28

Is bathroom not an English term?

In English English a bathroom is only ever a room that contains a bath.

Bathroom/restroom for a public loo is American.

AspieAndProud · 08/11/2018 23:31

Who is going to have more interest in your body if you’re naked? A gay man or a lesbian?

In this hypothetical situation, does the ‘lesbian’ have a penis?

merrymouse · 09/11/2018 07:12

early walker, it’s a shame you have gone. I can see that you are not concerned about mixed sex toilets and are never going to be convinced that they are unsafe.

What I don’t understand is why you seem to think self ID is unlikely when the Labour Party have adopted self ID policies in anticipation of it becoming law.

It’s fairly likely that Labour will win the next general election.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 09/11/2018 07:27

The women who come here to tell us to be nicer to transwomen all seem to ignore the privacy and dignity argument.

It’s like they just can’t process the idea that women can say no to men

merrymouse · 09/11/2018 07:59

If the Conservatives were in opposition and allowing fox hunting at Conservative Party HQ in anticipation of a change in the law; and nobody in the Labour Party felt able to condemn fox hunting; I wouldn’t assume that fox hunting was only supported by a few extemists on twitter.

Earlywalker · 09/11/2018 08:12

Just wanted to come back to answer the Muslim comment as I also see that a lot of here as an argument. I think Muslims being unable to be in the presence of men an entirely different (feminist) issue. Whilst I respect their religion and their right to practice it, I think we have to be careful throwing one non feminist action under the bus to empower another.
I worked with lots of Muslim woman, some who wore the hijab, we also had a few transwoman and all used the same facilities with no issues. Also it’s worth noting, in Islam transgender people are far more widely accepted than gay/lesbian people. In some Muslim countries, people transition in order to be gay as they are then seen as straight. The Muslim friends I had were very accepting of trans people and did see them as their desired sex.

The privacy and dignity question I have responded too, you have individual cublicals - we do not pee in the open like men. I have never been in a woman’s toilets and seen a woman do anything except wash her hands, dry her hands and occasionally sort hair/makeup. All of these things are regularly done in the presence of men anyway. And these are not just men, they are transwomen.

Self ID is not law yet, that is the point. There was a large consultation and we don’t know who will win. As for labour likely to win the next GE - LOL.

MIdgebabe · 09/11/2018 08:24

No not a convincing abstract, the.article not freely available for detailed reading

These are some of the questions I would be asking if I could read it

It talks about very exceedingly rare numbers..are the findings statistically sound?

It focuses on reported crime ..people don’t report much especially if they think they will be dismissed. Did they consider a complimentary survey study? This is then primary method used in the uk to understand sex abuse as it is considered more reliable than recorded crime data

It does not claim to study how the law change affects people behaviours...which is a key motivation in our law , to ensure women can participate freely in society

Eg. AS a result of the change were more men or transwomen us8ng the facilities...because if society norms remain the law change is irrelevant

Eg as a result did women modify their behaviour. For example, do some women stop to work because they’d use the loo to change im!? Did women from some religions feel more marginalised?

Given the nature of then research I would also so want to understand their funding source

Ereshkigal · 09/11/2018 08:27

And these are not just men, they are transwomen.

What's the material difference? It makes no difference to me.

Ereshkigal · 09/11/2018 08:28

The women who come here to tell us to be nicer to transwomen all seem to ignore the privacy and dignity argument.

It’s like they just can’t process the idea that women can say no to men

This.

Ereshkigal · 09/11/2018 08:31

In some Muslim countries, people transition in order to be gay as they are then seen as straight.

YY. They sometimes do it so they won't be thrown in jail or executed for being gay. Very progressive. I'm not sure what point you think you're making. Many Muslims still see them as men.

OldCrone · 09/11/2018 08:37

There was a large consultation and we don’t know who will win.

The Scottish and UK governments have both made it clear which side they are on.

jellyfrizz · 09/11/2018 08:38

Also it’s worth noting, in Islam transgender people are far more widely accepted than gay/lesbian people.

Tattoos are considered haram in many areas because they permanently change Allah's perfect creation so I can't see how it would be ok to remove or permanently distort working body parts.

jellyfrizz · 09/11/2018 08:42

I worked with lots of Muslim woman, some who wore the hijab, we also had a few transwoman and all used the same facilities with no issues.

Are you sure there were no issues or was there just no protest made about it. Did you ask the Muslim women? They may well have avoided using the facilities when they saw a male going in.

I can totally understand why they wouldn't feel empowered enough to speak up about the situation.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 09/11/2018 08:42

In some Muslim countries, people transition in order to be gay as they are then seen as straight

Iran is the only Muslim country in which that is the practice. I've lived in a number of Middle Eastern countries and I cannot tell you that that is not the norm. And it is not the norm in Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan or Bangladesh, all countries that are largely Muslim.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 09/11/2018 08:43

in Islam transgender people are far more widely accepted than gay/lesbian people.

Nope. Wrong.