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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

1,600 Scientists Just Signed A Letter Opposing A Legal Definition Of A Gender Binary

220 replies

Bonions · 02/11/2018 15:12

Ffs

www.buzzfeednews.com/article/azeenghorayshi/scientists-vs-gender-binary

I tried to choose the worst bits but couldn’t as it’s all pretty awful

An open letter that denounces attempts to define gender as a binary trait based on anatomy or genetic tests has gathered signatures from more than 1,600 scientists.

The letter, which includes the signatures of eight Nobel laureates, was written in response to a memo drafted in spring of 2017 by the Department of Health and Human Services, according to the New York Times. The memo reportedly urged government agencies to adopt a legal definition of sex “on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable,” according to the Times.

The memo also reportedly stated that any disputes over a person’s sex would be clarified using genetic testing, a claim that scientists say is unscientific and unethical.

The Trump administration has not confirmed the memo or issued any statement — or proposed regulation — that adopts the views in the memo.

The report incited much debate on Twitter, and today more than 50 companies, including Apple, Google, and Facebook, released a letter condemning it. It also prompted 22 scientists to put together an opposition letter, addressed to “our elected representatives.”

“This proposal is fundamentally inconsistent not only with science, but also with ethical practices, human rights, and basic dignity,” the scientists wrote. “Though scientists are just beginning to understand the biological basis of gender identity, it is clear that many factors, known and unknown, mediate the complex links between identity, genes, and anatomy.”

The letter stressed that both biological sex and gender fall on a spectrum. Roughly 1 in every 2,000 babies in the US are born with what are called intersex traits: anatomy, hormone levels, or chromosomes that fall somewhere between what’s typically defined as male or female. An estimated 1.4 million adults in the US identify as transgender, meaning their gender identity does not correspond to the gender they were assigned at birth.

“As a geneticist and as someone who studies reproduction on a biological level, I can safely say that their scientific reasons are simply not based in science,” Mollie Manier, an assistant professor of biology at George Washington University and one of the coauthors of the letter, told BuzzFeed News. “The science on gender is very much still in development, but more importantly, the lived experiences of transgender and intersex people should not be co-opted by a genetic test.”

Others pointed out that genes and chromosomes alone can’t predict someone’s sex or gender.

“The relationship between someone’s genotype, or their DNA, and their phenotype, or their traits, is very complicated, and sex and gender are no exception,” said Russell Neches, a postdoc studying the evolution of genomes at the Joint Genome Institute at Lawrence Berkeley Labs. “These are human beings we're talking about, so it's not enough to have a concept of sex and gender that only works for the majority.”

For transgender scientists, the letter was personal.

“As a trans woman and as a scientist, it’s inherently an attack on my humanity, my ability to exist in the world, and to safely navigate certain spaces,” said Mika Tosca, an assistant professor of climate science at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. “It was really important that we gather as many scientists as we could to say that so scientists ourselves were not complicit in promoting this wholly flawed nonscientific effort.”

The letter also emphasized the dangers of any policy forcing medical professionals to stray from recognizing an individual’s self-identified gender. “Our best available evidence shows that affirmation of gender identity is paramount to the survival, health, and livelihood of transgender and intersex people,” the letter states.

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Bonions · 02/11/2018 15:15

The open letter:

not-binary.org/statement/

Transgender, intersex, and gender non-conforming people #WontBeErased by pseudoscience

Signed, 1642 scientists
As scientists, we are compelled to write to you, our elected representatives, about the current administration’s proposal to legally define gender as a binary condition determined at birth, based on genitalia, and with plans to clarify disputes using “genetic testing”.1 This proposal is fundamentally inconsistent not only with science, but also with ethical practices, human rights, and basic dignity.2

The proposal is in no way “grounded in science” as the administration claims. The relationship between sex chromosomes, genitalia, and gender identity is complex, and not fully understood. There are no genetic tests that can unambiguously determine gender, or even sex. Furthermore, even if such tests existed, it would be unconscionable to use the pretext of science to enact policies that overrule the lived experience of people’s own gender identities.

The proposed policy seeks to erase the identities of millions of Americans who identify as transgender (individuals whose gender identification differs from their assigned sex at birth) or have intersex bodies (individuals with biologically atypical patterns of male and female traits). In transgender individuals, the existence and validity of a distinct gender identity is supported by a number of neuroanatomical studies.3 Though scientists are just beginning to understand the biological basis of gender identity, it is clear that many factors, known and unknown, mediate the complex links between identity, genes, and anatomy.4

In intersex people, their genitalia, as well as their various secondary sexual characteristics, can differ from what clinicians would predict from their sex chromosomes. In fact, some people will live their entire lives without ever knowing that they are intersex.5 The proposed policy will force many intersex people to be legally classified in ways that erase their intersex status and identity, as well as lead to more medically unnecessary and risky surgeries at birth. Such non-consensual gender assignment and surgeries result in increased health risks in adulthood6, 7 and violate intersex people’s right to self-determination.

Millions of Americans identify as transgender or gender non-conforming, or have intersex bodies, and are at increased risk of physical and mental health disorders resulting from discrimination, fear for personal safety, and family and societal rejection. Multiple standards of health care for transgender and intersex people emphasize that recognizing an individual’s self-identified gender, not their external genitalia or chromosomes, is the best practice for providing evidence-based, effective, and lifesaving care.8, 9 Our best available evidence shows that affirmation of gender identity is paramount to the survival, health, and livelihood of transgender and intersex people.10

Given its scientific and ethical failings, we call upon the administration to withdraw this proposed policy. We also ask our elected representatives to oppose its implementation, as it would cause grave harm to transgender and intersex Americans and weaken the constitutional rights of all Americans. Transgender and intersex people deserve equal access to the rights, livelihoods, liberties, and dignity to which we are all entitled on the basis of our shared humanity.

Signed,
Biologists, Geneticists, Psychologists, Anthropologists, Physicians, Neuroscientists, Social Scientists, Biochemists, Mental Health Service Providers,
and other scientists in Solidarity

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SuperLoudPoppingAction · 02/11/2018 15:16

Do the scientists mean sex or gender? It's unclear.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 02/11/2018 15:17

'There are no genetic tests that can unambiguously determine gender, or even sex.'
Gosh

OldCrone · 02/11/2018 15:18

“These are human beings we're talking about, so it's not enough to have a concept of sex and gender that only works for the majority.”

So are they suggesting that we have a concept instead that only works for a small minority, and doesn't work for the majority?

OldCrone · 02/11/2018 15:21

“As a trans woman and as a scientist, it’s inherently an attack on my humanity, my ability to exist in the world, and to safely navigate certain spaces,” said Mika Tosca, an assistant professor of climate science at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago.

As a woman, gender ideology is an attack on my ability to safely navigate certain spaces. Do I matter? Or is it only trans people who matter?

Bonions · 02/11/2018 15:21

References in letter

  1. Reuters. Trump Administration Trying to Define Transgender Out of Existence: NY Times. The New York Times link. 2018 Oct 21.
  2. OHCHR | Embrace diversity and protect trans and gender diverse children and adolescents link.
  3. Kreukels BPC, Guillamon A. Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence. International Review of Psychiatry. link 2016 Jan 2;28(1):120–8.
  4. Bramble MS, Lipson A, Vashist N, Vilain E. Effects of chromosomal sex and hormonal influences on shaping sex differences in brain and behavior: Lessons from cases of disorders of sex development. Journal of Neuroscience Research. 2017 Jan 2;95(1–2):65–74. link
  5. Dumic M, Lin-Su K, Leibel NI, Ciglar S, Vinci G, Lasan R, Nimkarn S, Wilson JD, McElreavey K, New MI. Report of Fertility in a Woman with a Predominantly 46,XY Karyotype in a Family with Multiple Disorders of Sexual Development. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan 1;93(1):182–9. link
  6. How Intersex People Identify – Intersex Campaign for Equality link.
  7. Minto CL, Creighton S, Mrcog M, Woodhouse C. Long term sexual function in intersex conditions with ambiguous genitalia. Journal of Pediatric and Adolescent Gynecology. 2001 Aug 1;14(3):141–2. link
  8. The World Professiona Association for Transgender Health. Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People, 7th Version link .
  9. Luk Gijs PhD, Anne Brewaeys PhD. Surgical Treatment of Gender Dysphoria in Adults and Adolescents: Recent Developments, Effectiveness, and Challenges. Annual Review of Sex Research. 2007 Mar 1;18(1):178–224. link
10. National Center for Transgender Equality. The Report of the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey, Executive Summary link. 2016 Dec.
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jellyfrizz · 02/11/2018 15:22

Do the scientists mean sex or gender? It's unclear.

Always the crux of the problem.

Bonions · 02/11/2018 15:22

superloud that was the one that caused me the most disbelief.

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Randomusername01 · 02/11/2018 15:28

This is just super depressing. What's the point in having any sex or gender protected characteristics if it's allegedly impossible to scientifically decipher between the two. Might as well give up being gc as this letter will be thrown in face every single time. And who can argue with 1600 scientists.

arranfan · 02/11/2018 15:29

Just to say that Andy Lewis, @lecanardnoir123 is having some very interesting exchanges about this on his Twitter timeline.

E.g., twitter.com/lecanardnoir/status/1058144317934592000

TheRollingCrone · 02/11/2018 15:32

We will - we will carry on. Bunch of self congratulatory virtual signalling unscientific wankers.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 02/11/2018 15:34

And who can argue with 1600 scientists

Me! They’re wrong

And mostly social scientists as I understand it

Micke · 02/11/2018 15:41

“As a trans woman and as a scientist, it’s inherently an attack on my humanity,"

How many times do we have to say - you're human, it's clear, that's fine - you're just not a female human, and that's fine too - it shouldn't restrict you from doing anything that other people who aren't female humans can do, and doesn't stop you doing most things that people who are female humans do.

Honestly, people call feminists man-haters because we expect men to be held to standards of behaviour, but the continuous allegation that saying that transwomen are male is dehumanising or erasing them - that's man hating surely - men are human too, there's nothing wrong with being male, males have rights and exist.

Randomusername01 · 02/11/2018 15:41

Where are all the biology scientists. Do they believe this, that sex is undeterminable and self identifiable sex is the best way forward (for lack of a better description). Unless some 'real' scientists are willing to revoke this nonsense then I think the war is lost ☹

arranfan · 02/11/2018 15:43

I'm taken aback by this news from Mrkhtake2 because I'd thought better of Karen James (tho' I've not met her, I've seen her writing on social media over several years and she's one of the authors and signatories of the letter):

I got blocked by kejames last night, who's supposed to be their PR person. Apparently that doesn't include enquiries from intersex people directly affected by their bullshit "science". I guess it also means they won't be getting back to me about the issues with their claims.

twitter.com/mrkhtake2/status/1058355388997718017

nauticant · 02/11/2018 15:44

This is what happens when you mix science and politics. It looks like the scientists (perhaps they are people who identify as scientists) are taking an anti-Trump stance, which means they have to reject what he's saying, even if some of it is scientifically correct.

As an example: There are no genetic tests that can unambiguously determine gender, or even sex. They are agreeing to the assertion that There are no genetic tests that can unambiguously determine gender (when gender means something other than sex). What kind of scientist would agree to such a meaningless statement?

I wonder how many of them got clear in their heads what they mean by "gender" or "gender identity" before signing the letter.

To add insult to injury, they're appropriating the experience of people with intersex conditions.

They're doing Trump's work for him.

Bowlofbabelfish · 02/11/2018 15:45

In other news, the presence of a child born with one leg has lead to legislation requiring all pairs of trousers to be shredded or burned.

Social scientists? Ffs. It’d be funny if it wasn’t so bloody depressing. Of course there’s no test for gender. Of course you can’t legislate for gender.

But sex is a binary. Intersex people are not a halfway house - they are all Male or female with errors in defined biological pathways.

1600 social scientists telling people what they think of genetics as gospel truth would be like me marching into CERN and demanding to rewire a particle accelerator because I think i can.

WhatTheWatersShowedMe · 02/11/2018 16:00

How many of them are in the biological sciences?

LikeDust · 02/11/2018 16:04

1600 fuckwits.

Melamin · 02/11/2018 16:13

Is it an anti-trump knee-jerk response? Too much of a hurry to condemn him on something?* I think some of them have left their brains behind.

  • I am sure there is plenty of more fact based evidence around if they want to bring him down.
FatherBuzzCagney · 02/11/2018 16:13

Being a 'community volunteer in Sociology' doesn't make you a scientist. Maybe they identify as one because they like to wear a lab coat at weekends.

gendercritter · 02/11/2018 16:15

Ah, now see this is why I think Trump's stance is so dangerous. It's forcing people to pick a side and they don't want to be on his. Which isn't to say they don't genuinely believe this nonsense but I'd bet that some of the signatories don't feel that strongly either way about this issue or it isn't their field but they saw lots of their colleagues signing, and they've added their name to 'be kind.'

I can only see genderists and their supporters becoming more entrenched thanks to Trump. People can't now back away from that position quietly and get on with campaigning about other things.

Randomusername01 · 02/11/2018 16:16

700 biologists and 100 neurologists amongst the 1600 scientists believe there is no reliable scientific test to accurately determine sex. Wtaf.

Igneococcus · 02/11/2018 16:17

And who can argue with 1600 scientists

Numbers don't actually matter (though I know that it will matter for many people). Right and wrong in science isn't decided by poll.

AspieAndProud · 02/11/2018 16:18

The papers cited include ‘Effects of chromosomal sex and hormonal influences on shaping sex differences in brain and behavior: Lessons from cases of disorders of sex development’ and ‘Report of Fertility in a Woman with a Predominantly 46,XY Karyotype in a Family with Multiple Disorders of Sexual Development‘.

What is it about the word disorders they are failing to understand?