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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

1,600 Scientists Just Signed A Letter Opposing A Legal Definition Of A Gender Binary

220 replies

Bonions · 02/11/2018 15:12

Ffs

www.buzzfeednews.com/article/azeenghorayshi/scientists-vs-gender-binary

I tried to choose the worst bits but couldn’t as it’s all pretty awful

An open letter that denounces attempts to define gender as a binary trait based on anatomy or genetic tests has gathered signatures from more than 1,600 scientists.

The letter, which includes the signatures of eight Nobel laureates, was written in response to a memo drafted in spring of 2017 by the Department of Health and Human Services, according to the New York Times. The memo reportedly urged government agencies to adopt a legal definition of sex “on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable,” according to the Times.

The memo also reportedly stated that any disputes over a person’s sex would be clarified using genetic testing, a claim that scientists say is unscientific and unethical.

The Trump administration has not confirmed the memo or issued any statement — or proposed regulation — that adopts the views in the memo.

The report incited much debate on Twitter, and today more than 50 companies, including Apple, Google, and Facebook, released a letter condemning it. It also prompted 22 scientists to put together an opposition letter, addressed to “our elected representatives.”

“This proposal is fundamentally inconsistent not only with science, but also with ethical practices, human rights, and basic dignity,” the scientists wrote. “Though scientists are just beginning to understand the biological basis of gender identity, it is clear that many factors, known and unknown, mediate the complex links between identity, genes, and anatomy.”

The letter stressed that both biological sex and gender fall on a spectrum. Roughly 1 in every 2,000 babies in the US are born with what are called intersex traits: anatomy, hormone levels, or chromosomes that fall somewhere between what’s typically defined as male or female. An estimated 1.4 million adults in the US identify as transgender, meaning their gender identity does not correspond to the gender they were assigned at birth.

“As a geneticist and as someone who studies reproduction on a biological level, I can safely say that their scientific reasons are simply not based in science,” Mollie Manier, an assistant professor of biology at George Washington University and one of the coauthors of the letter, told BuzzFeed News. “The science on gender is very much still in development, but more importantly, the lived experiences of transgender and intersex people should not be co-opted by a genetic test.”

Others pointed out that genes and chromosomes alone can’t predict someone’s sex or gender.

“The relationship between someone’s genotype, or their DNA, and their phenotype, or their traits, is very complicated, and sex and gender are no exception,” said Russell Neches, a postdoc studying the evolution of genomes at the Joint Genome Institute at Lawrence Berkeley Labs. “These are human beings we're talking about, so it's not enough to have a concept of sex and gender that only works for the majority.”

For transgender scientists, the letter was personal.

“As a trans woman and as a scientist, it’s inherently an attack on my humanity, my ability to exist in the world, and to safely navigate certain spaces,” said Mika Tosca, an assistant professor of climate science at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. “It was really important that we gather as many scientists as we could to say that so scientists ourselves were not complicit in promoting this wholly flawed nonscientific effort.”

The letter also emphasized the dangers of any policy forcing medical professionals to stray from recognizing an individual’s self-identified gender. “Our best available evidence shows that affirmation of gender identity is paramount to the survival, health, and livelihood of transgender and intersex people,” the letter states.

OP posts:
arranfan · 02/11/2018 20:16

Meanwhile humans continue to be born male or female.

And most people know which style of contraception is appropriate to which partner in a exchange where pregnancy might be an outcome...

PreseaCombatir · 02/11/2018 20:19

I hought it was transphobic to say ‘born in the wrong body’ now?
Their penis is a lady penis etc etc
Their rhetoric changes so often it’s hard to keep up....

AspieAndProud · 02/11/2018 20:25

Another point on the brain scan thing: how can you claim that transwomen’s brains are like’ women’s brains if you can’t differentiate between men and women in the first place?

Who’s scans are you comparing them with if you haven’t decided which group of scans belong to men and which to women?

arranfan · 02/11/2018 20:27

Sex in humans may not be binary but it's surely bimodal:

whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/10/28/sex-in-humans-may-not-be-binary-but-its-surely-bimodal/

Evolution societies issue misleading statement about sex:

whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/11/02/evolution-societies-issue-misleading-statement-about-sex/

Bowlofbabelfish · 02/11/2018 20:33

You can’t.

Multiple issues with that study. Firstly a lot of the genes they looked at were to donwoth sex steroid metabolism. They interpret that as being caused by ‘transgender’ but their sample is taking endogenous sex steroid hormones. and so of course you’d expect to see genes involved in their metabolism altered.

Secondly as aspie says, there is no defined le female or male brain to baseline on. There are undoubtedly physical differences between the sexes on average- what’s not clear is the magnitude of those differences within group compared to between group, or how those link to functional differences.

Thirdly, there’s no indication of causality for any signal found. What is a plausible mechanism is that some sort of difference linked to a dyaphoric predisposition has been found. It’d be interesting to compare the scans to those of anorexics or classic body dysmorphics

I suspect what they’ve found (if indeed they have found anything, it’s a small sample and the baseline is hopeless) is a combo of the effects of being given sex hormones and predisposition to dysphoric illness in general.

How a dysphoria manifests is often heavily influenced by society. Anorexia for example.

AspieAndProud · 02/11/2018 20:36

Jerry Coyne (author of Evolution is True) on the matter:

whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/11/02/evolution-societies-issue-misleading-statement-about-sex/

AspieAndProud · 02/11/2018 20:43

Oops - beaten by arranfan.

Jerry has written a lot on this subject and unlike Quillette, Areo, The Spectator or The Mail, the below the line commentators tend to be science geeks who may not be radical feminists but generally rise above ‘feminists are just getting a taste of their own medicine’.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 02/11/2018 20:51

Millions of Americans identify as transgender.

I really don't think so. For scientists they aren't all that good at maths.

Does this mean I'm on the same side as the orange one though?

AspieAndProud · 02/11/2018 20:59

There are 325.7 million people in the US. For one million people to identify as transgender there would have to be one in every 325.7 people. For ‘millions’ there would have to be at least twice that many.

AspieAndProud · 02/11/2018 21:02

We aren’t on the same side as Trump.

It’s just that TRAs have overstepped the mark so much their war has opened up on two fronts.

FlorisApple · 02/11/2018 21:22

Sigh. When I opened this thread and saw the letter, I thought: "Oh fuck! We've surely lost" (sorry for being pessimistic, having a down day). But actually, this will force real biologists to speak out, surely?

There is one terrible effect of the letter though: Mika identifies themselves as a Climate scientist, which will just give Trump and his followers more reason to deny climate change and vilify scientists; it will all get lumped in with the same craziness.

As for the "Anthropologists" signing the letter; I'd love to ask them what the possible basis for gender identity is, given that, if anything, Anthropology and History show us how culturally manufactured in time and space gender ideology has been; what possible innate basis for gender would they uphold? Maybe a spiritual one? In which case, how is that "scientific"? I just don't get their reasoning?

nauticant · 02/11/2018 21:25

This is amazing. (I am stunned by this stuff all the time, I'm forever saying that.)

Trump has got scientists to embrace anti-science in order to oppose him. Firstly this shows how a significant part of the up-and-coming scientific community is willing to corrupt itself, and secondly it's handing Trump an absolute gift. The next time someone says to Trump about the scientific case for climate change he'll be able to quip: "Let me tell you about scientists. The other week I saw a letter from thousands of them saying it's not possible to tell the difference between men and women".

nauticant · 02/11/2018 21:29

Gosh, that's some cross-post. I hadn't seen yours FlorisApple before I posted.

FlorisApple · 02/11/2018 21:34

Yes, exactly nauticant! You said it much better than me, this really worries me; it ushers in all kinds of anti-science stuff.

biscuitmillionaire · 02/11/2018 21:49

From the Guardian, 'What DNA can tell us'

Sex
The simplest thing DNA can tell you is whether someone is male or female. Apart from some very rare cases, that doesn't even involve looking at their DNA sequence - all you need to know is whether they have X and Y chromosomes (making them male) or a pair of Xs (which makes them female). A foetus will, by default, develop as female unless the SRY gene on the Y chromosome is turned on.

FermatsTheorem · 02/11/2018 21:52

One of the daftest lines is the "so you're telling me you won't accept me into the ladies without checking my chromosomes" line - err, 99.99% of the time human beings can accurately determine someone's sex just by looking at them.

More like 100% if there's obvious things, like the fact that you fathered 3 children before transitioning...

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 02/11/2018 21:57

Trump has got scientists to embrace anti-science in order to oppose him. Firstly this shows how a significant part of the up-and-coming scientific community is willing to corrupt itself, and secondly it's handing Trump an absolute gift. The next time someone says to Trump about the scientific case for climate change he'll be able to quip: "Let me tell you about scientists. The other week I saw a letter from thousands of them saying it's not possible to tell the difference between men and women".*

This. I can only guess that the whole issue of trans rights is an expression of some end-if-the-world zeitgeist. Massive social anxiety manifesting itself in bizarre, anti-rational beliefs as we nudge closer to disaster.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 02/11/2018 22:01

99.99% of the time human beings can accurately determine someone's sex just by looking at them.

That’s kind of the point isn’t it? So you can tell quickly who is likely to be a reproductive partner and/or a threat to your children. It’s not accidental that in a visual species, it’s easy to tell by looking.

Ereshkigal · 02/11/2018 22:02

As I understand it some MTF brain structures are more similar to those of women than other men’s. They’re still closer to non-treansgender men than they are to non-transgender women.

YY.

Ereshkigal · 02/11/2018 22:05

It’s bang on :)

I'm so pleased with this response from you you wouldn't believe 😁

paffuto · 02/11/2018 22:06

I admire you all so much for continuing to fight, question and search for discrepancies. I feel despondent and hopeless just by the number of 1600 "scientists". These Wine Flowers for all of us.

Ereshkigal · 02/11/2018 22:07

Trump has got scientists to embrace anti-science in order to oppose him. Firstly this shows how a significant part of the up-and-coming scientific community is willing to corrupt itself, and secondly it's handing Trump an absolute gift.

Indeed. TRAs on other sites are taking the piss out of this thread as we won't defer to these SCIENTISTS. Hopefully their lurkers will actually read it.

Ereshkigal · 02/11/2018 22:09

Also, I myself am a "scientist" by their apparent definition not actually a scientist

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 02/11/2018 22:13

thing is, if the scientists are talking bobbins (which in this case they are), then who cares if there's 2, 200, 1600 or 160,000 of them?

I've been present at 2 20 week ultrasound screenings.

I know damn well that there are extremely reliable tests for determining the sex of humans

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 02/11/2018 22:21

Those “1600 scientists” could have chosen to affirm the importance of trans rights, the necessity of legislation to protect them from discrimination and the right of every human to self-expression. That would be compassionate and powerful.

But that scientists are willing to misrepresent science and tell actual lies about material reality is deeply shocking.

But scientists are not free from errors of thinking - Linus Pauling and the vitamin C nonsense as an example.