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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

1,600 Scientists Just Signed A Letter Opposing A Legal Definition Of A Gender Binary

220 replies

Bonions · 02/11/2018 15:12

Ffs

www.buzzfeednews.com/article/azeenghorayshi/scientists-vs-gender-binary

I tried to choose the worst bits but couldn’t as it’s all pretty awful

An open letter that denounces attempts to define gender as a binary trait based on anatomy or genetic tests has gathered signatures from more than 1,600 scientists.

The letter, which includes the signatures of eight Nobel laureates, was written in response to a memo drafted in spring of 2017 by the Department of Health and Human Services, according to the New York Times. The memo reportedly urged government agencies to adopt a legal definition of sex “on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable,” according to the Times.

The memo also reportedly stated that any disputes over a person’s sex would be clarified using genetic testing, a claim that scientists say is unscientific and unethical.

The Trump administration has not confirmed the memo or issued any statement — or proposed regulation — that adopts the views in the memo.

The report incited much debate on Twitter, and today more than 50 companies, including Apple, Google, and Facebook, released a letter condemning it. It also prompted 22 scientists to put together an opposition letter, addressed to “our elected representatives.”

“This proposal is fundamentally inconsistent not only with science, but also with ethical practices, human rights, and basic dignity,” the scientists wrote. “Though scientists are just beginning to understand the biological basis of gender identity, it is clear that many factors, known and unknown, mediate the complex links between identity, genes, and anatomy.”

The letter stressed that both biological sex and gender fall on a spectrum. Roughly 1 in every 2,000 babies in the US are born with what are called intersex traits: anatomy, hormone levels, or chromosomes that fall somewhere between what’s typically defined as male or female. An estimated 1.4 million adults in the US identify as transgender, meaning their gender identity does not correspond to the gender they were assigned at birth.

“As a geneticist and as someone who studies reproduction on a biological level, I can safely say that their scientific reasons are simply not based in science,” Mollie Manier, an assistant professor of biology at George Washington University and one of the coauthors of the letter, told BuzzFeed News. “The science on gender is very much still in development, but more importantly, the lived experiences of transgender and intersex people should not be co-opted by a genetic test.”

Others pointed out that genes and chromosomes alone can’t predict someone’s sex or gender.

“The relationship between someone’s genotype, or their DNA, and their phenotype, or their traits, is very complicated, and sex and gender are no exception,” said Russell Neches, a postdoc studying the evolution of genomes at the Joint Genome Institute at Lawrence Berkeley Labs. “These are human beings we're talking about, so it's not enough to have a concept of sex and gender that only works for the majority.”

For transgender scientists, the letter was personal.

“As a trans woman and as a scientist, it’s inherently an attack on my humanity, my ability to exist in the world, and to safely navigate certain spaces,” said Mika Tosca, an assistant professor of climate science at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. “It was really important that we gather as many scientists as we could to say that so scientists ourselves were not complicit in promoting this wholly flawed nonscientific effort.”

The letter also emphasized the dangers of any policy forcing medical professionals to stray from recognizing an individual’s self-identified gender. “Our best available evidence shows that affirmation of gender identity is paramount to the survival, health, and livelihood of transgender and intersex people,” the letter states.

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 03/11/2018 00:26

Bespin: there is no evidence

Ah, see, we have finally arrived on something we can both say.

A letter signed by lots and lots of clever people with don't like Trump and are vewwy, vewwy kind isn't evidence that sex is a mysterious indefinable entity that no one really understands.

Try again. Or sod off to bed, whichever you prefer, I'm completely out of fucks about it.

Bespin · 03/11/2018 00:31

me too, to be honest I'm past caring about if you really believe this or not but at least I'm not rude about it. maybe all the people who disagree with you have a point and that you might be wrong. only time will really tell with that.

Silentlyobserving · 03/11/2018 00:31

There are 3 main natural scientific disciplines as if you did not already know, biology, chemistry and physics with specialisms within each discipline. Anyone who claims to be a scientist that does not study any of these three disciplines are not scientists. As a natural scientist I do not for one moment think that "social sciences" are actual science - they just try to sound like they know what they are talking about - when in actuality they just waffle incessantly about total nonsense and surprise surprise there are no "right" answers.

MrGHardy · 03/11/2018 00:34

silently

Even within the social sciences there are hierarchies. You should hear how economist talk about sociologists. Economics is full of nerds that aren't good enough to be top at maths, mathturbating economic models. And they're still not good enough to be at the top where there are people who actually have ideas.

Ereshkigal · 03/11/2018 00:34

It's sad that neither you nor the BBC can apparently name the 9 Nobel winners so I can see whether their opinions are relevant to this question, Bespin.

Bespin · 03/11/2018 00:36

I'm sorry I can only apologise for our nations broadcasting organisation and its current poor level of news gathering we shall endeavour to do better in future.

Silentlyobserving · 03/11/2018 00:37

The natural sciences do not have "hierarchies", each discipline is respectful of the others skills, knowledge and expertise.

Ereshkigal · 03/11/2018 00:37

maybe all the people who disagree with you have a point and that you might be wrong. only time will really tell with that.

And perhaps the opposite is true. Ain't life grand.

FloralBunting · 03/11/2018 00:37

Bespin, I tried being polite and conciliatory with you a long time ago, and tbh, you haven't budged an inch with the Anti-woman schtick, so I'll not be taking any supercilious shite off you about being 'rude' about the anti-woman and child bollocks you peddle.

Time will have zero affect on whether there are more than two sexes, but it will repeatedly demonstrate that the male class is a danger to the female class, and therefore your 1600 ideologues scientists can FTFO with their attempts to shore up the removal of sex based rights.

OldCrone · 03/11/2018 00:38

These are the nobel prize winners in the signature list. Surprising that they were willing to put their names to this.
Jean-Pierre Sauvage (chemistry)
Andrew Fire (Medicine/Physiology)
Eric Wieschaus (Medicine/Physiology)
Dudley R. Herschbach (Chemistry)
Richard J. Roberts (Medicine/Physiology)
Craig C Mello (Medicine/Physiology)
Wolfgang Ketterle (Physics)
Sheldon Lee Glashow (physics)
Carol W. Greider (Medicine/Physiology)

Ereshkigal · 03/11/2018 00:39

I'm sorry I can only apologise for our nations broadcasting organisation and its current poor level of news gathering we shall endeavour to do better in future.

Thanks, appreciated. Glad you've noticed.

Bespin · 03/11/2018 00:46

FloralBunting

I'm sorry you feel that way, I hope you can find some peace in all this.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 03/11/2018 00:48

I suppose if the 1600 scientists are correct about sex as a spectrum and gender identities and bodies having nothing to do with each other, at least we can stop fretting about global warming, since human reproduction will come to a standstill.

Instead of selecting partners capable of reproducing with, those who desire children will have to randomly bob about like dodgem cars, in the hope that they might bump into someone with an alignment of organs and personality which makes conception possible.

We’ll be down to a dozen people in a few generations.

The planet will sigh with relief and if there is a god, whatever the fuck their pronouns are, will be putting a big, black line through that particular experiment.

Bespin · 03/11/2018 00:50

thanks for the list of names they are a pritty impressive set of names just reading there work. they all seem to be in the areas who would have a very detailed understanding of this field.

FloralBunting · 03/11/2018 00:51

Bespin, thanks. I'll be just fine. Your well wishes would sound a lot more sincere if you weren't backing a movement that would curtail the rights of myself and my sisters, attempts to coerce lesbians into heterosexual sex and gleefully uses kids as medical experiments.

SignMeUp · 03/11/2018 00:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bespin · 03/11/2018 00:53

DancelikeEmmaGoldman

I remember a very similar argument about the persived increase in gay people in the 70s and 80s and yet we are still here

FloralBunting · 03/11/2018 00:56

Ah, Bespin is playing bingo. We haven't had the 'this is just like the gay panic' argument brought up for all of twenty minutes.

So tell me, Bespin, how you square away that your movement is homophobic to the core?

Bespin · 03/11/2018 01:03

FloralBunting

I am sorry that my continued fight to defend my exsistance causes you to feel like this, and that fear must be very real to you and a lot of other people but I do not recognise your discriptions of our community as a whole

ohello · 03/11/2018 01:12

Well goody, they signed their name. Now I know who to write letters to.

ohello · 03/11/2018 01:16

I am totes annihilating a caramel apple out of existence tonight. It will be gone poof, never to be seen again! Smile

Can't really say the same about Bespin now can we? So why all the melodrama and hyperbole? Tis boring.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 03/11/2018 01:17

sarcasm
/ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/
noun
the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

FadingMint · 03/11/2018 01:18

In order to produce a brand-new human, you still need a female gamete from a woman and a male gamete from a man, meeting and joining within the woman's body.

That is sex.

Gender? Have at it! Fill yer boots! So long as you don't threaten my rights as a woman, our collective rights as women; and my rights and duty as a mother to protect my children.

OldCrone · 03/11/2018 01:20

they all seem to be in the areas who would have a very detailed understanding of this field.

I'd love to hear your theories on how quarks and Bose-Einstein condensation relate to gender identity.

Bespin · 03/11/2018 01:21

sarcasm
/ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/
noun
a very British thing to use.