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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

1,600 Scientists Just Signed A Letter Opposing A Legal Definition Of A Gender Binary

220 replies

Bonions · 02/11/2018 15:12

Ffs

www.buzzfeednews.com/article/azeenghorayshi/scientists-vs-gender-binary

I tried to choose the worst bits but couldn’t as it’s all pretty awful

An open letter that denounces attempts to define gender as a binary trait based on anatomy or genetic tests has gathered signatures from more than 1,600 scientists.

The letter, which includes the signatures of eight Nobel laureates, was written in response to a memo drafted in spring of 2017 by the Department of Health and Human Services, according to the New York Times. The memo reportedly urged government agencies to adopt a legal definition of sex “on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable,” according to the Times.

The memo also reportedly stated that any disputes over a person’s sex would be clarified using genetic testing, a claim that scientists say is unscientific and unethical.

The Trump administration has not confirmed the memo or issued any statement — or proposed regulation — that adopts the views in the memo.

The report incited much debate on Twitter, and today more than 50 companies, including Apple, Google, and Facebook, released a letter condemning it. It also prompted 22 scientists to put together an opposition letter, addressed to “our elected representatives.”

“This proposal is fundamentally inconsistent not only with science, but also with ethical practices, human rights, and basic dignity,” the scientists wrote. “Though scientists are just beginning to understand the biological basis of gender identity, it is clear that many factors, known and unknown, mediate the complex links between identity, genes, and anatomy.”

The letter stressed that both biological sex and gender fall on a spectrum. Roughly 1 in every 2,000 babies in the US are born with what are called intersex traits: anatomy, hormone levels, or chromosomes that fall somewhere between what’s typically defined as male or female. An estimated 1.4 million adults in the US identify as transgender, meaning their gender identity does not correspond to the gender they were assigned at birth.

“As a geneticist and as someone who studies reproduction on a biological level, I can safely say that their scientific reasons are simply not based in science,” Mollie Manier, an assistant professor of biology at George Washington University and one of the coauthors of the letter, told BuzzFeed News. “The science on gender is very much still in development, but more importantly, the lived experiences of transgender and intersex people should not be co-opted by a genetic test.”

Others pointed out that genes and chromosomes alone can’t predict someone’s sex or gender.

“The relationship between someone’s genotype, or their DNA, and their phenotype, or their traits, is very complicated, and sex and gender are no exception,” said Russell Neches, a postdoc studying the evolution of genomes at the Joint Genome Institute at Lawrence Berkeley Labs. “These are human beings we're talking about, so it's not enough to have a concept of sex and gender that only works for the majority.”

For transgender scientists, the letter was personal.

“As a trans woman and as a scientist, it’s inherently an attack on my humanity, my ability to exist in the world, and to safely navigate certain spaces,” said Mika Tosca, an assistant professor of climate science at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. “It was really important that we gather as many scientists as we could to say that so scientists ourselves were not complicit in promoting this wholly flawed nonscientific effort.”

The letter also emphasized the dangers of any policy forcing medical professionals to stray from recognizing an individual’s self-identified gender. “Our best available evidence shows that affirmation of gender identity is paramount to the survival, health, and livelihood of transgender and intersex people,” the letter states.

OP posts:
VintageFur · 02/11/2018 22:24

Aspire john o'groats is very much closer to Orkney than London... By about 650 miles. Grin Scotland is very big!

Ereshkigal · 02/11/2018 22:27

thing is, if the scientists are talking bobbins (which in this case they are), then who cares if there's 2, 200, 1600 or 160,000 of them?

YY, which is why I don't really care about this nonsense.

FloralBunting · 02/11/2018 22:33

Ah yes, science, that field of discipline where conclusions are based on how many people sign political letters.

Closely related to technology, where resolutions come from opening the back up, blowing on something, and putting it back in again.

nauticant · 02/11/2018 22:46

This is Science 2.0 FloralBunting. I wonder when peak-Enlightenment was? Maybe around the start of the millennium.

FloralBunting · 02/11/2018 22:56

20.05.

On a Tuesday evening.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 02/11/2018 23:17

How do these 'scientists' think that human beings procreate? The mind truly boggles. Anyway, if they're pro self-ID presumably they simply self-ID as scientists, which would explain a lot.

The problem (well one of the problems) with the USA is that politics is so polarised the democrats have a basic position that literally everything the Republicans say is evil and vice versa. You have democrats going along with clearly batshit stuff just because the Obama administration did it and vice versa (Republicans and Trump). So if Trump said that water is wet then you'd probably get 1,600 democratic 'scientists' to write a letter saying it isn't. The number of politicians who will work cross party in the national interest or do anything in an evidence-based, considered way seems daily to be dwindling. It's not that much better in the UK either.

paffuto · 02/11/2018 23:36

Can always rely on you lot to bring logic, sense and humour into scary issues. I've been like a wimp tonight. Going to bed with a smile now. Thankyou. Smile

Silentlyobserving · 02/11/2018 23:40

Randomusername01 biologists teach and know about sexual dimorphic nature of Homo sapiens

Bespin · 02/11/2018 23:41

so not the right type of scientist's then all of them are wrong and you are right then? no one is even willing to entertain that they might have a point and that you might be wrong.

Ereshkigal · 02/11/2018 23:42

Oh Bespin I was just about to turn in. But I think I'll stay a while longer.

Ereshkigal · 02/11/2018 23:43

Let's see the evidence. Rather than the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority.

Ereshkigal · 02/11/2018 23:44

What do you think they're right about Bespin?

MrGHardy · 02/11/2018 23:51

Bunch of ideologues. Rachel McKinnon is as much a 'scientist' as these people. There's enough physicists who are religious, too, to show that ideology > science for some people.

FloralBunting · 02/11/2018 23:57

I'll entertain anything you like Bespin. Most of what you back tends to be dribbling nonsense, but there's a first time for everything. Astonish me.

Bespin · 03/11/2018 00:03

no its late let's leave it tonight. you just disagree with 1600 people most of which seem to really know what they are talking about 9 of which are noble prize winners but you still require more evidence. sort of like them people that don't think there is global warming.

Manderleyagain · 03/11/2018 00:03

Florisapple. On anthropology and history. I bought the new scientist a while ago because it had a report on gender inequality. I thought it would be interesting to see what the hard sciences (I was guessing evolutionary biology) said about it. It turned out to be by an anthropologist and reviewed literature mostly in the social sciences. They are obviously rebranding as science.

You are right that anthropologists and historians take gender to be externally constructed. But there is a tendency to take the 'produced discursively' view of sex and the body. It's what Jane Clare Jones has called 'discourse all the way down'. It kind of makes sense for a starting point for study, eg if sex is cultural then you can study it. I think it was sociologists who first asked is sex really binary. Back in the 70s? Historians have traced fundamental change in how sex is understood and some probably believe that the binary is socially produced. I expect anthropolgy is the same.

Ereshkigal · 03/11/2018 00:05

no its late let's leave it tonight.

Bless. Ok then. Tomorrow?

Ereshkigal · 03/11/2018 00:07

Which 9 are Nobel prize winners? Just like to read up on their works and careers.

FloralBunting · 03/11/2018 00:10

Are the 9 Nobel prize winners up for another one for discovering that there are more than two sexes and you can seamlessly swing between them like Tarzan and Jane on a vine, Bespin?

Cos if they're not, it's just more dribbling nonsense from you isn't it? Sleep well.

Bespin · 03/11/2018 00:14

I have no idea it's just something I read in the news maybe Google can help. there is no evidence that any of us can produce that would over ride your view point and I'm not even going to try any more because there is little point in doing so nothing will ever be good enough for you to maybe realise that what people are pointing out is maybe correct

Ereshkigal · 03/11/2018 00:15

You seemed fairly sure about the Nobel prizes though? Link would be polite.

FadingMint · 03/11/2018 00:16

In order to produce a brand-new next generation human, a female gamete, produced by a woman, and a male gamete, produced by a man, must meet and join, inside the woman's body.

No gender, genders or gendering involved or needed!

Bespin · 03/11/2018 00:19

there you go

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-us-canada-46067559

nine noble prize winners at least you can agree with that.

MrGHardy · 03/11/2018 00:20

"so not the right type of scientist's then all of them are wrong and you are right then? no one is even willing to entertain that they might have a point and that you might be wrong."

Yes Bespin, no one on this board has ever heard their ideology before and should definitely entertain it.

SignMeUp · 03/11/2018 00:26

We desperately need scientific inter-disciplinary higher education. Scientists need grounding in language, law, history, civics, art and current affairs. It's expected of science careerism to specialize to the narrowest focus. Since 1600 signed this, I'm seriously depressed because I hold a lot of faith in science myself.