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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

1,600 Scientists Just Signed A Letter Opposing A Legal Definition Of A Gender Binary

220 replies

Bonions · 02/11/2018 15:12

Ffs

www.buzzfeednews.com/article/azeenghorayshi/scientists-vs-gender-binary

I tried to choose the worst bits but couldn’t as it’s all pretty awful

An open letter that denounces attempts to define gender as a binary trait based on anatomy or genetic tests has gathered signatures from more than 1,600 scientists.

The letter, which includes the signatures of eight Nobel laureates, was written in response to a memo drafted in spring of 2017 by the Department of Health and Human Services, according to the New York Times. The memo reportedly urged government agencies to adopt a legal definition of sex “on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable,” according to the Times.

The memo also reportedly stated that any disputes over a person’s sex would be clarified using genetic testing, a claim that scientists say is unscientific and unethical.

The Trump administration has not confirmed the memo or issued any statement — or proposed regulation — that adopts the views in the memo.

The report incited much debate on Twitter, and today more than 50 companies, including Apple, Google, and Facebook, released a letter condemning it. It also prompted 22 scientists to put together an opposition letter, addressed to “our elected representatives.”

“This proposal is fundamentally inconsistent not only with science, but also with ethical practices, human rights, and basic dignity,” the scientists wrote. “Though scientists are just beginning to understand the biological basis of gender identity, it is clear that many factors, known and unknown, mediate the complex links between identity, genes, and anatomy.”

The letter stressed that both biological sex and gender fall on a spectrum. Roughly 1 in every 2,000 babies in the US are born with what are called intersex traits: anatomy, hormone levels, or chromosomes that fall somewhere between what’s typically defined as male or female. An estimated 1.4 million adults in the US identify as transgender, meaning their gender identity does not correspond to the gender they were assigned at birth.

“As a geneticist and as someone who studies reproduction on a biological level, I can safely say that their scientific reasons are simply not based in science,” Mollie Manier, an assistant professor of biology at George Washington University and one of the coauthors of the letter, told BuzzFeed News. “The science on gender is very much still in development, but more importantly, the lived experiences of transgender and intersex people should not be co-opted by a genetic test.”

Others pointed out that genes and chromosomes alone can’t predict someone’s sex or gender.

“The relationship between someone’s genotype, or their DNA, and their phenotype, or their traits, is very complicated, and sex and gender are no exception,” said Russell Neches, a postdoc studying the evolution of genomes at the Joint Genome Institute at Lawrence Berkeley Labs. “These are human beings we're talking about, so it's not enough to have a concept of sex and gender that only works for the majority.”

For transgender scientists, the letter was personal.

“As a trans woman and as a scientist, it’s inherently an attack on my humanity, my ability to exist in the world, and to safely navigate certain spaces,” said Mika Tosca, an assistant professor of climate science at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. “It was really important that we gather as many scientists as we could to say that so scientists ourselves were not complicit in promoting this wholly flawed nonscientific effort.”

The letter also emphasized the dangers of any policy forcing medical professionals to stray from recognizing an individual’s self-identified gender. “Our best available evidence shows that affirmation of gender identity is paramount to the survival, health, and livelihood of transgender and intersex people,” the letter states.

OP posts:
larrygrylls · 03/11/2018 13:35

Ummm, are there examples of effeminate silverbacks?! Or did the silverbacks also inherit gendered behaviour along with their size and testosterone? Or is all that chest beating patriarchal and an example of toxic masculinity?

LangCleg · 03/11/2018 13:47

Point.



The head of larrygrylls

(It's a bit like Concorde.)

larrygrylls · 03/11/2018 14:03

Lang,

Now I am truly confused, would love to be able to tilt my nose up and down though!

NeurotrashWarrior · 03/11/2018 14:22

Argh.

I don't know if this helps but im looking at and thinking of posting the edited copy of my son's harmony test result a year and a day ago. He's currently teething. I have no idea his gender identity but I know that he's male as he loves to pee every time you take his nappy off.

I sometimes worry he will have male fertility issues as I had to take paracetamol quite a lot during pregnancy.

I'm hoping he'll be more into tidying up than his older brother.

He is xy. And was xy at 11.5 weeks gestation.

When I look at this sheet I know the nonsense in the op is nonsense, I don't have a Nobel prize, only an art dregree, but it's really not rocket or CERN science.

OldCrone · 03/11/2018 15:21

larrygrylls

Does sex exist as a concept in gorilla societies? I'll answer that for you - yes it does. We know that because gorillas are not extinct and continue to reproduce.

Does gender exist as a concept in gorilla societies? Are there transgender gorillas?

If gender is to replace sex because some people think it is more important, how does this translate to other species? Are farmers supposed to start asking all their sheep for their gender identity before deciding which ones to keep for the new breeding stock and which ones to send off to become next week's roast lamb?

merrymouse · 03/11/2018 15:24

I don’t think many female animals get a chance to express a sexual preference, never mind a gender identity.

Materialist · 03/11/2018 15:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

merrymouse · 03/11/2018 16:01

Yes materialist - men really benefit from structures that exclude women for bullshit ‘gender’ reasons - the church, golf clubs, the masons, academic and professional structures that assume everyone has a wife to look after the children.

Unbelievably there are still 90 hereditary peers in the House of Lords and most titles exclude women.

arranfan · 03/11/2018 16:03

Materialist wrote: I’d bet my house that for each of those 9 Nobelists, the person who cleans their toilets is a woman.

Strange how we don’t know what sex us except when it’s time to allocate the household drudgery and the unpaid care work.

[merail] I've read some excellent variations on this but the only one I can find at present is: Who Cooked Adam Smith's Dinner? From the Amazon notes:

When Adam Smith wrote that all our actions stem from self-interest and the world turns because of financial gain he brought to life 'economic man'. Selfish and cynical, economic man has dominated our thinking ever since and his influence has spread from the market to how we shop, work and date. But every night Adam Smith's mother served him his dinner, not out of self-interest but out of love.

Today, our economics focuses on self-interest and excludes all other motivations. It disregards the unpaid work of mothering, caring, cleaning and cooking. It insists that if women are paid less, then that's because their labour is worth less - how could it be otherwise?

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00TOLYFOS/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1&tag=mumsnetforum-21

[/merail]

OldCrone · 03/11/2018 16:34

Unbelievably there are still 90 hereditary peers in the House of Lords and most titles exclude women.

And the GRA has an exception which stops women from inheriting a peerage even if they become legally male. Funny that.

nellodee · 03/11/2018 17:16

I spent a little while looking into scholarly articles on the genetic identity of sex this morning. I now completely agree with the writers of this article, and want to identify myself as a hi-terf. I am now a Hermaphrodite Inclusory - Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist. This is my preferred mode of address and I will be very offended if people do not use it.

Less glibly, I do think that even if there are only 1 in 20,000 people who either have an active SRY section on their X chromosome, or an active section of what would usually be an X chromosome on their Y chromosome, these people would be adversely affected by what Trump is proposing. I have huge sympathy for those who have a chromosomal abnormality and apologise for any offence given in my first paragraph. I truly would be very accepting of anyone with these disorders.

The other 99.995% of the population, however, have a uniquely identifiable sex, based on their chromosones, beyond question. They cannot change their sex. Whilst sex in humans may not be entirely binary, is certainly bimodal. One of the major areas where genetic identification of sex is important is in investigation disasters, such as Grenfell. Scientific papers looking at determining sex under these circumstances barely touch on chromosomal abnormalities, as they have little bearing on their work statistically.

For those who have chromosomal abnormalities but are still recognisably male or female via their genetics, the material I have read suggests that an early diagnosis is vital and helpful, as the earlier in life you discover that you are not the sex you thought you were, the less severe the implications on mental health.

Vixxxy · 03/11/2018 20:13

I don't think there is a 'gender binary' either. However, gender has fuck all to do with sex..like TRAs try to make out. There are countless genders. Sex is binary. As these scientists know. Hence the purposeful conflating of the two.

ohello · 04/11/2018 03:10

Once you define it solely by reproductive capacity, you can ask whether a sterile woman is a woman.

No. When the topic is full of many weasel words, we must be precise. No one is defining male/female by reproductive capacity. Instead, the criteria is reproductive system.

A system is comprised of multiple parts, and a system doesn't have to be complete to tell what it is. An old car without an engine is still a car -- it is not an airplane! A man without a penis is eunuch, he doesn't magically have a female reproductive system.

LillyoftheCentralValley · 04/11/2018 03:33

Gendercritter

Bingo!

nauticant · 04/11/2018 11:52

An old car without an engine is still a car

When someone goes out in the morning to drive off in their car but it doesn't start, who would say it's no longer a car? Well, you'd get some po-mo types saying "how can we say that anything truly exists?" but that kind of approach wouldn't help the car owner in thinking up solutions of how to transform the "non-car" into a "car".

nauticant · 04/11/2018 11:54

The car gets taken to a garage and the owner is told it's not worth repairing it. What to do with this thing that ceased to be a car? Get the car towed to a scrapyard? Take it the vets? Contact the local vicar to arrange a funeral?

Turph · 04/11/2018 12:24

There is no compelling evidence of being "born in the wrong body"

If anyone claims they were born in the wrong body you should ask them Who’s body is that then?

Where did they end up?

As I understand it some MTF brain structures are more similar to those of women than other men’s. They’re still closer to non-treansgender men than they are to non-transgender women.

John O’Groats is closer to London than the Orkney Islands but that doesn’t make Groaters Cockneys - even if they sew buttons on their coats and sing My Old Man’s a Dustman.

AspieAndProud these are brilliant. HRTFT yet but had to quote these. Grin

Ereshkigal · 04/11/2018 12:33

Brilliant Aspie! 

catkind · 04/11/2018 12:58

The rare cases where a developmental error has occurred do NOT create a third sex or a halfway house or a spectrum.

It's difficult to ask as it involves individuals with complex and difficult medical conditions. I think I asked on another thread but it went bang. If an individual has say a mosaic disorder with parts of a dysfunctional female reproductive system and parts of a dysfunctional male reproductive system, what sex do they obviously and uniquely belong to? If they are XY but develop with a vagina, breasts, no penis (and no reproductive capacity if that matters) what sex do they obviously belong to? I would think those people do not have an unambiguously classifiable sex and it's up to them and their doctors to decide if they want to see themselves as male, female or just intersex. I am wary of statements that they just "are" male or female with a disorder, when for certain conditions I don't know which sex they would be deemed to just "be" and I don't think we'd want it to be imposed.
It doesn't make sex a spectrum, because the vast majority are unambiguously M or F and anything else is as many people have pointed out a disorder.
It certainly doesn't mean we should replace the useful and functional concept of sex with a completely self identified concept of gender identity where many if not most people can't be classified at all and there are a thousand different identities, that classification would have no function.

SignMeUp · 08/11/2018 00:43

ohello Now that the midterm elections are done, I'm waiting to hear about the candidate you mentioned. Thanks

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