Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

I find it absurd to expect mothers - especially with babies/small children to put themselves first

I find it absurd that you equate considering and caring about one's own worth, needs and interests is incompatible with caring for a child.

When you breastfeed and are overcome by thirst, you can't just put the baby down and get a drink

That's just being a martyr. Of course you can put baby down for a couple of minutes. Or put baby in a sling and carry on feeding for the few minutes it takes.

Sending thank you cards for the baby gifts
Remembering who gave which outfit and putting it on baby when they visit
Entertaining his family when they come to visit
Dealing with his mother
Balancing the competing demands of both sides of the family

But this and indeed most of stuff on your list is just more being a martyr. The baby's father can deal with all of these things.

And seriously Remembering who gave which outfit and putting it on baby when they visit do you think anyone cares or expects this? And frankly even if someone is so petty that they care, why should you? Why do you (general you) make these pointless rods for your backs?

So many great posts in this thread.

Regarding teaching with men being over confident/disrespectful and women being under confident and needing permission in order to begin to create then completely doubtful about the value of their work - i've seen this in kids at school. It starts young - male entitlement/female lack of entitlement.

I think the baby/ children thing is difficult because it's not as simple as your own needs vs their needs. If my children are unhappy/ not properly looked after then I'm unhappy so sometimes it may seem I'm putting them before me but it's actually what I want to do. Peeing is really not that much fun with a baby screaming at the same time, it's much nicer for me if they're happy at the same time.

Hearing your baby crying is horrible and there a particular wail of disbelief and betrayal that occurs when you interrupt their breastfeed. It is a trade-off. What is worse - hearing that wail and getting a drink of water or putting up with the thirst for a bit, letting the baby fall asleep on the breast, carefully putting them down then tending to one's own needs in peace? Suppressing ones own discomfort for a bit is by far the better choice, because in 20 minutes both can be content.

I have absolutely no Beryl.

DH is much more of a people pleaser and much politer and kinder than I am.

I think I might be the anti-Beryl 

There was 1 year I wasn’t working, I closed down the business that I’d been doing around the children while they were babies and toddlers and decided that I should allow myself the luxury of 9 months (because it wasn’t a full year) of looking around and deciding what I would do the following year when my youngest child entered full time education.

I resented the wifework more that year than before. I wasn’t in three places at once putting out fires and therefore I could see clearly all the ways I had enabled my husband and how little he had noticed.

Then last year my body started falling apart on me. And it became even more obvious that there were no consequences for him if he didn’t do anything. None. To tell the truth, there still aren’t.

I was sick enough last Monday that he had to be home and manage the after school chaos. On Tuesday he deigned to arrive before bedtime so I could have more sleep. It was very clear that despite his beliefs and resentment of me dropping wifework entirely and his feelings that he does much more than other men - he hasn’t had 2 consecutive nights of school bedtime routine in a very long time.

And there are no real consequences. He sends yesterday’s uneaten lunch back to school in kid’s lunchbox and I get an email. Not him. He arrives home at midnight and nothing happens.

So now we both resent each other but my inner Beryl is cheering me on and insisting that my health comes before looking after him as he would like.

LikeDust slightly digressing but I used to hobble to the tap for a glass of water whilst dc was still latched on . Not my most glamorous look.

yeahcorvid I think you have something in the respect angle. Getting respect for being kind is giving something back in return.

I have been reading about some differnt (hunter gatherer) societies where the roles of men and women are very strongly defined, but the men show significant respect for the roles that the women are undertaking and I wonder how much that mutual respect is what prevents resentment

And there are no real consequences. He sends yesterday’s uneaten lunch back to school in kid’s lunchbox and I get an email. Not him. He arrives home at midnight and nothing happens.

But there are consequences- as far as for the well-being of the children is concerned isn't there (its just that he doesn't really care enough about them)?

People can make all sorts of facile comments about simply refusing to do something and not enable the man, but if you go on strike and ignore Beryl, things will start to fall apart and hurt the kids.

I really agree with what someone said up thread about how you don't know whether you have one of the helpful men until you have kids with them. I remember reading on 'post secret' a man saying that he lies and says he has to work late so he doesn't have to do bedtime with his kids. The bloke who posted that secret probably lied to his partner about how he really wanted to be an involved dad, etc, but the reality is that he can't stand parenting and finds ways of escaping to let his partner bear the entire burden.

slightly digressing but I used to hobble to the tap for a glass of water whilst dc was still latched on

Aw yes. Bless you. I remember developing similar skills as time went on. My heart goes out to all the mum's with little infants - all the indignities, needing to wing it so much. Especially those with a partner who is more of a hindrance than a help

Great thread.

I have a strong Beryl and was raised by a woman whose internal Beryl is the most Beryliest Beryl who ever inhabited a woman's psyche. She lost her own mother young, and I think reacted to that by honing her will to be of service with laser precision.

I've noticed of late that her internal monologue has become external (factor of increasing cognitive impairment), and it consists entirely of "I must", and "I should" and "I have to". It's heartbreaking. What must it be like living inside that hellscape of never ending obligation? Her memory is going, and the obsessions that she has developed relate entirely to the comfort and wellbeing of people around her. Do you have a drink? What do you want for breakfast, for lunch, for dinner? Are you happy? Is husband happy? Is everything in the house clean, well-ordered, available for people?

Her Beryl is a psychotic bitch. What could my mum have done in life if she'd have managed to tell Beryl to get bent and replaced all the "I have to" with "I want to"?

The topic of my mother in laws birthday came up recently when I was talking to my mum and sister. I don't know exactly when her birthday is (late August I think?). We're not at all close - she's a perfectly nice person, but we live hundreds of miles apart and don't often get in touch. My husband, her son couldn't reliably tell you when her birthday is and I made a policy decision very early doors in the relationship that I would not be performing that piece of wife work. So it often goes unremembered. I don't send a card. I don't buy a present.

My mum and sister were legit horrified. They spent a good ten minutes telling me what an awful person that makes me. Their faces were a picture. And it was really, really hard to stick to my guns. That's social conditioning for you.

I am working on getting Beryl to STFU. Sometimes it works.

I've recently recruited my husband to helping me defeat Beryl.

When I catch myself doing it, I stop and start sniffing the air, and say "What's that smell?", and if he thinks I'm Beryling, he'll say "the rank stench of burning martyr"

Another mother anecdote: her speciality pudding for guests is meringues. She hates meringues and never eats them. But every special meal, out come the meringues. Just, why?

Aw it's so bloody pitiful! Your poor mum.

Isn't it just

I think there are a few things that need to happen to overcome Beryl.

1. To improve ones self worth.

2. To develop a tolerance for societal/social disapproval.

3. To find ways to get you partner take responsibility for wifework.

4. To be able to shrug it off as 'it's not my fault/not my problem' if you saw something coming, it happened and you did nothing.

5. To begin with small conscious acts of self-centredness.

I think number's 1 and 3 are probably the trickiest.

I've noticed of late that her internal monologue has become external (factor of increasing cognitive impairment), and it consists entirely of "I must", and "I should" and "I have to". It's heartbreaking. What must it be like living inside that hellscape of never ending obligation? Her memory is going, and the obsessions that she has developed relate entirely to the comfort and wellbeing of people around her.

This is absolutely bloody heartbreaking, Sophocles.

(I would be the same about the MiL's birthday if my husband CBA, too.)

Christmas is approaching and there will be the usual martyred complaints from posters about having to do everything. I have never bought a birthday or Christmas present or card for any of his family . I don't expect him to do so for my friends and family and what he does for his family is up to him.

This I do. His family deserve some recognition at Christmas and they are "my" family now, so to speak, now we have a daughter. They wouldn't get anything from him, and I think it's out of order considering his brother isn't even in secondary school yet so at least he should get something from "us". I don't expect him to get anything for my family because they don't associate, but I and his family do (visits etc).

I mean my grandparents get cards from their son's ex-girlfriend, since they had a daughter together and she is probably more part of our family now than their son is (my uncle), since he fucked off and nobody ever hears from him. She my aunt, though not through marriage or blood. It would be weird for us to just not bother with eachother because technically my uncle should do it

My mum's very similar sophocles. She has dementia and obsesses over everyone having enough to eat or drink. She constantly worries about having enough milk etc and gets distressed that she can't manage to cook an enormous buffet for friends, family and neighbours at Christmas. She did pretty much everything for the family growing up even though she worked full time (dad cooked sometimes but expected to be given a round of applause for it) and continued to do so after they both retired.

It's incredibly sad she defines herself in this way -she was the youngest woman to enter her job at the time and the first woman to get a particular role in her workplace. She's creative and widely travelled but in her twilight years she's obsessing over bloody milk.

3) To find ways to get you partner take responsibility for wifework.

I still do a lot of household and DD related work,part because of my working hours and part because I'm a control freak.
I don't do "his" stuff though. He's a perfectly able grownup so I don't cook for him, sort his paperwork,remind him of appointments,if he wants something on the food shop he needs to say,laundry only if it's where it's supposed to be and so on.Yes things go tits up sometimes and that's on him and his problem to deal with. Weekend stuff (housework,doing stuff with DD,birthday parties etc)we share as much as possible.

My mother is appalled and pitied the poor neglected man. Especially when it comes to food.

My mum is great in so many ways, but I do wish she hadn't taught me more or less that, as the woman, I have to be the reasonable one and 'compromise' because for years it made it hard for me to stand up to DH when he was in a bad mood, as I think I'd internalised the idea that I couldn't stand up to anger.

So I have started standing up to him when he's angry and I think he's wrong, and it's difficult but I am always glad when I do it. I don't want to teach my daughter that you just give in to the angry, shouty man .I want to teach her that if he loses his temper with her for no good reason, she is entitled to say 'I don't have to answer you/do X for you when you talk to me like that' Because I think it's an especially important thing for women to be able to do.

"Another mother anecdote: her speciality pudding for guests is meringues. She hates meringues and never eats them. But every special meal, out come the meringues. Just, why?"

I must be inherently selfish, my whole family adore meringues. I hate them. I never make them nor do I entertain the idea of anyone else making them. I cook a mean rice pudding though, which they also love.

I have a very strong Beryl. I am so anxious for everyone around me to be happy, that I now have a rather selfish husband and daughter who are far too used to being ‘serviced’. It’s going to take a while to get any equality at all in the household.
My husband does his own ironing, makes his own packed lunches and cleans the sinks and toilets, he also likes doing Christmas stuff, which I suppose is a start. I have recently stopped bothering about birthday stuff for his extensive family. And I’ve stopped volunteering to help at things that I really don’t want to help with. I do think women make a lot of extra work for themselves sometimes - thinking of endless Christmas fairs, cakes sales, coffee mornings, none of which I actually like.

Pondering how else to stop being so kind....

packingsoap looks like we all hate our own Beryls. New mumsnet word there for sure!

Btw I also think giving credit to others is part of this. I spent a lot of my working life making sure appropriate people got credit for work they did but it took my years to realise I wasn't being treated the same and was missing out on recognition for my work. In fact others were taking credit for it (worked in veey male dominated area), and on one occasion boasting to me about it! I've then started to try and take credit where I felt I was owed but it's hard as it sounds so petty, and it was too little too late.

Yes fuck Beryl and fuck politeness. There's a podcast called "My Favourite Murder" where they talk of different murders or near misses of attempted murder and their mantra is "Fuck Politeness". The amount of times women are murdered or nearly murdered because of their politeness is very very obvious when you hear their stories. (Sounds horrid podcast but the female hosts wrap the stories around lighthearted chat so it's not awful as it sounds.)

Sorry to hear that, bluetits sounds v similar to my mum (no diagnosis of dementia, but the writing seems to be on the wall that things are heading that way, sadly).