Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

Johnny , I mentioned 'cool girl syndrome ' (something discussed on previous threads) and 'identifying out of oppression' as a way of showing that things don't always turn out how we intend. I'm not chastising myself for those choices, I'm saying that they didn't lead to the freedom I wanted due to unexpected circumstances.
I opted out of parenthood but have due to DH's health problems I have ended up in a caring role anyway.

I expect many women find themselves having to deal with difficult circumstances where emotional and physical exhaustion means they don't have the energy to overcome any negative conditioning from their past, and the boiling frog situation is a common one. We are complex creatures and our individual conditioning can play out in a myriad of ways.

It's easy to judge others as not sticking up for themselves or whatever, but walk a mile in their moccasins as the saying goes.

"make something you fancy for dinner and not what everyone else will want to eat."

It's possible to cook meals that at least one or two family members like. It would be unfair to never cook what your dh or dc like and it has never occurred to me not to cook my preferred meals at least once or twice each week.

I find this thread really interesting as my experience of being a girl, woman, mother, employee, daughter etc. is not like this at all. I do not sacrifice my own happiness, of course I make sacrifices as having children requires me to do. My dh is super helpful and probably tidies more than me (far, far from perfect before anyone accuses me of stealth boast, he has many irritating habits, as have I) but right now he has figured out how our sewing machine works and is teaching dc a few tricks on it whilst I am mumsnetting.

But if you always cook to please other people when do you ever get to eat what you like? Ideally you should share cooking duties with others in the household who can cook, or if you are the only adult (I don’t except that no adult can cook and if they can’t they can learn and follow a recipe) then show your kids that on at least one day of the week we eat what mummy likes. Because otherwise you teach your sons and daughters mothers/women’s opinions are second beSt.

I suspect motherhood is when the risk of falling into the ways of Beryldom begin.

If your partner doesn’t take on some of the menial stuff then you’ve fallen into Beryldom.

Most definitely and as I said on another thread if the Dad just refuses to do certain things then sometimes it's a question of either you do it or the kids lose out. Most mothers won't let the kids lose out (read relationships and the number of Disney dads, it seems to be so common).

As kids get older, yes they can help but when they're little and if the man refuses to help then it's the mother or no-one and the child is neglected. And women get demonised if they don't do the basics well (clean clothes, food etc). And once you've fallen into that role in the early years, it's hard (not impossible but hard and tiring) to undo.

And as Lass says, of course it's reasonable for the SAHP to do stuff in the working day while the other parent is out, but in my experience it ends up often with the SAHMs doing ALL the cooking and ALL the food shopping, week days and weekends (and often ALL the laundry and cleaning too). This isn't the case for me (though I think I definitely do more than 50% on weekends and evenings), but I know lots of women where this is the case and for whom it wasn't that way at all at first, and whose other half will get home and say 'I'm so tired' and expect dinner on the table as if running around after 2 under 5s plus doing housework at the same time isn't bloody tiring. And having to point out the unfairness all the time is often a fight too much for women who are already doing so much.

Once you've had kids often your love for them essentially traps you. One thing at a societal level that would help would be if Dads who don't equally parent were demonised to the same extent 'neglectful' mothers are.

Wow this thread is amazing.
Some things that pop in my mind.

1. What nice/kind actually means. If you don't go out of your way to be a dick to other people you already are nice. It can be shown just as much,if not more by what you don't do (abuse,bullying,kicking puppies, whatever) than what you do. There isn't a list to tick to show niceness.

2.look at why you are nice/kind. Because you want to or because it's expected/demanded/coerced/nothing gets done unless you do it. If it's any of the latter, you're not necessarily nice,you're just ticking a checklist for whatever reason.

1. Being someone's easy option doesn't mean you are nice,you're just someone's easy option. That can be anything from long lost male crying on your shoulder to having a shitload of work dumped on you,when it's not your responsibility. It helps to look at it as it is,rather than having the nice/not nice internal debate.

1. Cheesy but true, if you're at the bottom of your priority list why would anyone else put you at the top of theirs?

You’re totally right on number 4 rebel. I say to myself that I want to treat myself how I’d want someone I was dating to treat me, I almost ‘date’ myself if you will. I am definitely my number 1 priority and I’m fine and happy with that. In fact, I wouldn’t expect someone I was dating to put me first all the time so I probably treat myself better!

I find it absurd to expect mothers - especially with babies/small children to put themselves first.

When you breastfeed and are overcome by thirst, you can't just put the baby down and get a drink. You need to put up with it or get a willing adult within earshot, if there is one, to get you a glass of water. When you would rather sleep through the night, but your baby cries and needs to be fed, get changed, etc - you can't just roll over and get more shut eye - you have to wake the fuck up and tend to the baby. The ability to put others first is essential for looking after helpless infants - in order that they thrive.

@LikeDust I agree to a degree. Not every need of a baby has to be answered exactly in that second every single time. Getting a drink won't kill the baby and doesn't equal neglect ffs. Unless the baby is in danger they can wait(screaming their heads off probably) while mum has a wee or whatever.

But somehow looking at these threads and in real life it seems to be:
1.baby
2.partner
3.pets
4.house

And then you end up with women complaining they don't have time to shower/eat etc. feeling completely overwhelmed and miserable.

Mn has definiteæy opened my eyes to conditioning on a real level. I knew about it but only academically.

I think I might have autism, and I do take things very literally. Therefore I blame the brownie guide promise (a brownie thinks of others before herself and does a good deed everyday) and my school motto (in honour preferring one another).

I read nice girls dont get the corner office after i saw it recommended on here, and wifework. It has really helped.

Do people see caring for your baby/children as being kind?

It's interesting because for autonomous adults, leaving bonding and love aside, caring for your infant is substantially accepted as part of your social/familial contract with them. I'm hazy on this but doesn't the Children's Act emphasise a parent's duty of care?

I intrigued that so many PP identify relationships/being a mother as the point where Beryl might pop to the foreground. The need to prioritise infants/children tends to be time-limited yet it often seems as if this is the point from which it seems tricky to plan for the time when other priorities are allowed to compete.

(Admittedly, my thinking is a bit patchy as we're moving and I'm trying to marshall the resources, ensure things are done logically, and clean at the same time.)

LikeDust that is one of the main reasons I don’t want kids. It sounds hellish having to live like that. I honestly think I’d rather die than lose agency of when and how to answer to my own whims and needs

@arranfan no, but some people see taking full responsibility of raising and caring for said baby as being nice,kind,supportive...to their partner.
So it becomes looking after the baby AND ensuring the partners life is as less disruptive as possible. Which is not healthy or sustainable.

I was one of them tbh. 2am newborn on my chest while i peed because if i put her down she screamed her head off. And if she screamed her head off she'd wake OH. And so on. So here i am trying to keep her quiet and to wipe one handed with infected tears,sore and tired as hell. That's when I thought ". What the fuck am I doing"" and how stupid it all was.

I agree Rebel. It’s not just caring for the newborn baby is it? it’s

Sending thank you cards for the baby gifts
Remembering who gave which outfit and putting it on baby when they visit
Entertaining his family when they come to visit
Dealing with his mother
Balancing the competing demands of both sides of the family
Making sure you don’t “ let yourself go”
Losing your baby weight ASAP to be a MILF
Wearing nice outfits, make up and doing your hair
Changing pads every few hours because you are pouring blood
Washing yourself every time you pee and blow drying with a hairdryer
Putting cream on your sore nipples
Surviving with broken sleep for months or years
Worrying about having sex because of stitches or soreness
Giving BJ because you are still too sore and he can’t possibly DIY
Making sure you give him enough sex so he doesn't stray
Taking your baby into work to show your colleagues and trying not to look shit
Being grateful to your partner for “ allowing you “ to take maternity leave to care for his child
Remembering not to complain when you are exhausted because it was “ your choice “
Making sure that he gets a full nights sleep and a lie in at the weekend because he has to work
Making sure he has plenty time off every evening and at weekends because he was at work all day
Keeping the easiest and most fun bits of parenting for him, because men can’t be expected to do any of the grunt work of parenting
Allowing him to boast and performance parent in public without slapping him
Feeling guilty because you miss your job
Worrying you won’t get promoted now you are mother
Feeling guilty because you don’t miss your job and wonder how you will ever be able to go back
Feeling guilty because sometimes you really really hate your partner and his easy life
Crying because you used to achieve so much each day and now it’s an achievement if you get dressed before lunchtime

AND doing all the housework , wifework and emotional labour.

The baby’s the easy bit.

I also teach adult education classes materialist and have exactly the same issue! It's also an arts based subject with a technical side and I find men of a certain age seem to think it can't be that technical as it's arty, lots of women do it and there's a female teacher. They dismiss my instructions as unimportant, think they know better and moan when their work turns out wrong. Some eventually realise the need to listen but others just decide it's 'not for them' and leave. Good!

I ditched the egotistical male phone caller years back (who knew so many of us have them?)
I said no to joining a pet project of a senior male at work - he was fine about it, and my two female colleagues were amazed (at me and that it was ok).
What I’m working on is trying not to jump when dh can’t find something, especially in the kitchen, and trying not to ‘manage his emotions’ all the time eg I used to find myself telling the dds to not keep our favourite programme on when he got home (he can live with us watching to the end!) He has picked up a lot more mental load now and ‘huffs’ less because it doesn’t work any more! We feel like equals and are closer for it.

I'm currently elbowing Beryl in the face by:

Not moving for people who think they own the pavement/corridor.

Refusing to rush at checkouts and cash desks because the person behind me is displaying 'hurry up' behaviour. Same at pedestrian crossings - I refuse to canter across just because a driver is revving their engine and rolling across the white line.

Pushing back against the use of 'need' from friends and family. The 'you need to do xyx' stuff. No, you want me to do xyz. Not the same thing. Ditto 'should'.

Saying no to people that want to borrow things. Also piss takers. I am no longer being the point of supply for 'spare' paracetomol, tissues and stamps.

I think the baby/ children thing is difficult because it's not as simple as your own needs vs their needs. If my children are unhappy/ not properly looked after then I'm unhappy so sometimes it may seem I'm putting them before me but it's actually what I want to do. Peeing is really not that much fun with a baby screaming at the same time, it's much nicer for me if they're happy at the same time.

I'm probably not putting this very well, but it's not as simple as competing needs in the same way as with an adult, equal partner. Yes, you have a duty of care as a parent but you also love your kids and want the best for them so much. One thing that has surprised me is how many men I see (including DH) unthinkingly putting themselves first once they've had kids because it's just not what I or many women I know (not all, but most) do. So, for example, coming home and making yourself a snack but not bothering to ask if the kids are hungry. Is it because they're relying on there being a woman (Beryl) to do it so they just don't think about it?

Breastfeeding is an interesting one for me, and I've been thinking about it a lot (usually when actually breastfeeding). It's an area where so many people have so many opinions when really, it's none of their business, but I do hear this 'breastfeeding ties you' so much as if it's some great sacrifice. All I can say is for me, breastfeeding has been a bone of contention with DH who at one point likened DD's enjoyment of mother's milk to a 'crack addiction', I think largely as it takes time away from him. But for me I've felt the needs of both DDs and my needs align quite well. When I'm breastfeeding I'm also lying down and resting and bloody Beryl doesn't get a look in at making me feel guilty like I should be doing housework / cooking a meal because I'm providing wonderful nutrients for baby / toddler, reducing my risk of cancer and having a blessed lie down. Win, win, win. It's the one time I don't feel guilty for 'me' time.

It makes sense for self-worth and Beryl to skip a generation. Parents who put themselves first and their kids last or even no-where in the priority list when decision-making, have children with low self-worth.

People who have low self-worth owing to such parenting feel they would never want their kids to go through that and become Beryl squared as a reaction to this childhood neglect. This over-compensating Beryl means their children think nothing of putting their own needs first and think self-centred grandma was the bees knees and mum was just a down-trodden mug.
Wow. I'm a bit taken aback by this. It's spot on.

So, for example, coming home and making yourself a snack but not bothering to ask if the kids are hungry. Is it because they're relying on there being a woman (Beryl) to do it so they just don't think about it?
There's no consequence. Previous posters wrote about Christmas cards, there's no consequence if he doesn't do them either.
Now you may disagree, as you think the children being hungry and your family and friends thinking you are rude are consequences, but they aren't to many men. The kids won't die if he doesn't make them a snack, and if people stop inviting him/you both for dinner because he didn't send a card, so what? They'll only blame you for not sending it anyway.
I have read so many boiling frog/Beryl/wifework threads on here and I think it comes down to a lack of consequences. If he doesn't bother getting up in time for work there are consequences. If he doesn't pull his weight at work there may be consequences. If he pisses off his wife, then what? A bit of "nagging"? So what? Shes obviously being unreasonable or hormonal, his mum used to do all that so it's normal right? If he doesn't organise the Scouts/swimming/ballet/karate then the kids don't go and he has more spare cash. So what?
If the kids arrive at the school gate in dirty uniform so what? He's a bloke, poor guy is out doing wifework. If their mum dropped them off looking like sacks of potatoes people would talk.
If there's no shame in being a lazy man, why change? If your wife will pick up after you, raise your kids, run your household and occasionally have sex with you then life is pretty sweet, no?

I over compensate because my mother was an abusive alcoholic, by telling my kids I love them about a million times a day, sitting down and reading with them, doing homework, indulging their hobbies and ferrying them around all over the place. They still have to tidy their room and get sent to the naughty step if they back chat me. You don’t have to be a doormat. If you hover over your kids, never let them be bored, give them everything they want as soon as they ask for it etc you are not going to raise happy kids with good mental health. It’s important to learn when young that yes, you are important and not to let anyone push you around and be a push over, bit at the same time they can’t go too far the other way. Mutual respect is key.

It’s unfortunate that you really don’t know whether you’ve got a supportive partner or not until you’ve had the kids. It’s not until you have to go on maternity leave that you find out whether or not he will take the opportunity to assert his new found power over you in your most vulnerable time, or whether he will be one of the good ones who mucks in, does the nappies and the night wakings and organises the breakfast clubs etc.

And finally, the reason most women wouldn't dare have that attitude is because we are taught that all of that is rude and selfish. We are taught that looking after people is kind.
The bloke I described is probably nice enough in many ways, but his mum never enforced any consequences for being thoughtless and now neither does his wife.
He is enabled by his wife, out earns the women he competes against at work (because he has a pitstop home where everything is done!) while they struggle to do paid work and home work, and remains blissfully unaware of others around him. Probably "destresses" at the weekends by cycling around with his mates on a £5000 pushbike, while his single female colleagues struggle to come up with that kind of money for a car.
We are our own worst enemies.

it's not until you have to go on maternity leave that you find out whether or not he will take the opportunity to assert his new found power over you in your most vulnerable time ooh captain that is so spot on.

"It makes sense for self-worth and Beryl to skip a generation"

I can see how this would work but it didn't work like that for me.

My mother did everything for everyone and put herself last. The order of priorities went: please god, please husband, please neighbours, son third to last, daughters second to last, herself last.

I didn't see "oh, see how mum puts me ahead of her, I must be important." I saw "females like us must take nothing for ourselves."

HOWEVER. My father has huge respect for my mother and thanks her for every meal she makes and makes other gestures of affection, respect and partnership all the time; my grandfathers worshipped the ground my grandmothers walked on. The women were unselfish but the men made sure they had respect and luxuries.

I behaved like my mother in my long term relationship and perhaps I thought subconsciously that modelling love and respect and consideration would bring them back to me - in perhaps a different form - as it worked with my parents. It didn't. I got nothing but drudgery and contempt. I wonder if I had ASKED to be treated well what would have happened. I was brought up in a culture where it was wrong to ask for anything - very unseemly - but very very wrong not to offer it, and it worked both ways. English men are kind of thugs aren't they? they don't do the "last piece of cake" dance at all. "You have it" then should go on to "no you have it" until the matter is settled fairly. With English men you say "you have it" and before you've said "it" he's eaten it. In fact he doesn't wait for you to even begin saying it.