Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

I like this thread. I haven't managed to read it all yet. I am just as bad with women as men. A friend basically emotionally blackmailed me into spending £300 which I can't afford on going to her birthday party. In reaction to this I didn't sleep for a week and binged like there was no tomorrow. I felt I had to do what she said so I turned my anger and resentment in on myself. I do the same at work: accept far too much work then binge and don't sleep eaten up with resentment. I am getting better at work but with friends it's much tougher.

likedust

2) To develop a tolerance for societal/social disapproval.

Yes I've learnt (from here actually) that just because someone disapproves of something you said or did doesn't mean everyone will and doesn't mean you're a bad person. It's liberating to realise this.

To others who said about birthday and Christmas cards I remember talking to the dad of a male friend of mine once. He said he was pleased when his son had a girlfriend because he and his wife would get birthday and Christmas cards!

The thing that has made me reflect is that I’ve realise I get no pleasure at all from many (not all) relationships - it’s all been about giving them a good time/support/love. At the moment I feel I would rather just like to be a hermit and oddly indifferent to people I once really cared about.

Yes, I think it's important to recognise that Beryl affects more than just the domestic arena. She can also affect your career.

It took me a long time to realise, for example, that doing freelance work for my employer (overtime, essentially) in the way I did on top of my contracted work meant that I did not not accrue benefits for that extra work. I was classed as contractually part time in terms of maternity leave and pay, despite working for upwards of 60 hours a week and being paid for those hours.

Beryl blinded me to that. In fact I would go so far as to say it was a certain type of working class Berylhood that kicked in (which is another whole can of worms, I do think class plays into how Beryl manifests).

I agreed to do the work because I wanted to be a valuable employee and hoped it would lead to promotion eventually. It didn't and I got screwed.

But it's the same gendered pattern. I cleaned up enormous messes left behind by people who didn't know what they were doing. I was the hand maiden at work as well.

I feel I would rather just like to be a hermit and oddly indifferent to people I once really cared about.

I think it's the Gottman Institute that published something along the lines that we effectively need 5 positive transactions to counteract the impact of 1 negative transaction with others.

www.gottman.com/blog/the-magic-relationship-ratio-according-science/

www.gottman.com/blog/the-workplace-the-ideal-praise-to-criticism-ratio/

Some people have such a serious imbalance when taking their social, work, and F&F life into consideration (e.g., they give out a lot of positive transactions that are taken for granted and not reciprocated while dealing with a lot of negative transactions) that being a temporary hermit reads like a good self-defence strategy for some time. I've no idea about long-term consequences tho' and if that feeds into the reports of how firmly entrenched loneliness is in our society.

I don't think the positive and negative transactions have to be entirely balanced within every relationship - it's understood as more free form than that. But, I wonder if perceived status feeds into a lot of indifferent to poor treatment in general, and then in intimate relationships with friends and family, with no mutual exchange of positive transactions - it all ends up being horrendously unbalanced for some people more than others?

I find this thread pretty depressing- particularly the posts from Likedust who seems to be revelling in her Beryl martyr status and that everything will fall apart if she doesn't do everything.

That’s a really useful link, Arranfan, many thanks.

I agree Lass, I don’t relate to it at all. I’m not a mother so I can’t comment on how I’d be if I was, but the things like struggling to stand up to men at work or say no to people - nope, not an issue for me. I cannot imagine in which universe I would start buying Christmas things for a partner’s family! I’ve made a conscious decision not to do Christmas (it’s great, costs me nothing) and no lazy man who can’t be arsed to buy cards for his mum is going to change that.

cannot imagine in which universe I would start buying Christmas things for a partner’s family!

I guess it also depends on whether you view your partner's family as part of your own family, which many do become. As I said in a PP, my aunt is viewed as our family although not married to ym uncle and now an ex. We still all go out for dinner with her, and the two children she had before she met her uncle are viewed by my grandparents as their grandchildren also, and to me they are my cousin's. I guess if you quite clearly have a line of My family Vs His family, it feels different.

*before she met my uncle.

Johnny I am a mother and I breastfed. The idea that if one is breastfeeding it becomes impossible to go and get a drink is someone trying to make life as difficult as possible for herself.

I've seen posters like that before. There may be an element of wanting validation to it "look at me - without me our domestic world would tilt off its axis and things fall apart". They might complain about being a "Beryl" but they won't do anything about getting rid of 'Beryl" as "Beryl" confers a status on them.

When I catch myself doing it, I stop and start sniffing the air, and say "What's that smell?", and if he thinks I'm Beryling, he'll say "the rank stench of burning martyr"

I like that!

It would also be useful to stop and recognise it when others are doing it (but just noting it internally).

I'm scrabbling round in my mind trying to remember a book that wasn't about CBT but discussed downward arrows and core beliefs as a way of uncovering fears and whether they are realistic.

Some people have such a serious imbalance when taking their social, work, and F&F life into consideration

I think there are also a lot of 'users' out there who are very well-versed in flattery, superficial charm and subtle emotional blackmail to get others to do their bidding. Perhaps they treat everyone in the same way to do diagnostics. The people who don't give them short shrift are fair game.

These snake oil types are full of 'positive' communications.

In the summer, my mum, sister and I swam at two different (coolish, British) beaches on the same day which gave me the choice of sitting all chilly in a wet suit or putting a clammy wet suit on for a second time. I literally DID NOT CARE, I was happy to be swimming in beautiful places. My sister and mum both had second costumes, this meant nothing to me, nor to my sister. But my mother was absolutely TORTURED by the situatino that she would have greater comfort than me (unavoidable - I would never have accepted it but we aren't similar sized enough for her to lend me her dry one) and I could see her even considering not using one so our situations would be equivalent. It was bizarre

Finally caught up with this brilliant thread!

My alter ego is definitely not a Beryl but more like Doris Doormat - although logically I realise one can be kind but still have good personal boundaries, emotionally I am a huge people pleaser who puts others needs first all the time in every context. As a result I'm chronically depressed, getting divorced (as a direct result of spotting Doris Doormat and realising STBX wipes his feet on her ecery day) and off work sick. Things have tochange. Fuck off Doris.

lettera "A woman in your own right" is a brilliant book

Quentin

It is horrible how many relationships are based on that imbalance - a piss-taker and a Beryl/Doris. I wonder how many women who are successfully able to shed Beryl/Doris will find fewer people want to hang out now that they are not able vampirise her time and energy any more.

@LikeDust a lot fewer I bet. another expectation of women is to have a wide social circle,a network, dinner parties , childhood friend,work friends,mum friends etc. And it's another failure when the social circle is small or nonexistent. Loneliness can be an issue,but there is so much outside influence and societal pressure to make it into an ever bigger issue-boring,weird,shy,anti social etc and always pity. So women will put up with things to salvage at least an appearance of a good social life. Which a lot of the time only adds to the pressure of juggling other people's needs.

So I sadly have to agree with the pisstaker / Beryl thing.

In my relationship though I'm the pisstaker I prefer chancer and DH is the Beryl (Bertie?)

Perhaps I can help as the thread's Anti-Beryl?

Repeat these 100 x in front of a mirror every evening:

• Erm...NO...

• "No I won't do X, what did your last slave die of?"

• "Are your arms broken? No? You can do it yourself then"

• "I can't possibly do X, I have a cat"

I often find though that a good old "fuck off" covers many a situation.

@LikeDust

Isn't that just a worry that keeps you a Beryl/Doris though?

People will only like me if I'm a "nice girl".

That's bolleaux - honestly, the chancers I know are still good friends of mine, they just don't expect me to do anything for them. They'll ask other people to do things they know makes them a C.F. but they won't ask me. Win win.

Also...just to be clear. The ingrained patriarchy (in us all) will have people read my posts and think I must be a selfish bitch.

I'm not; I would say a lot of my friends would say I'm very kind and generous.

I just don't do things I don't want to do, I don't do anything that would make me feel used or like a doormat, I don't let anyone pull cheeky fuckery, etc.

It isn't a choice between doormat or bitch.

Yes, I think there is a balance here. Some kinds of giving make me feel warm and fuzzy - I made a treat for my family earlier in the week, and they all appreciated it. I didn’t have to, I wanted to - that was a good kind of giving. Then there is anenforced kindness, that leaves me feeling used and resentful and needs to stop.

Pick up cat and place on lap> "I can't possibly do X, I have a cat"



I normally use the kid even though I have a cat too. Mostly in social/ work situations.

I think it's very possible to be a 'Beryl' in some areas of life and not at all in others.

I would never in a million years buy presents for DP's family or do more housework than him. He is much more organised and houseproud than me (I lived in total squalor before he came along - an alternative manifestation of low self esteem). Crucially he would also never ask me to do anything unreasonable. But when it comes to work and friendships I find it near impossible to say no to anything. Even expressing an opinion that differs from somebody else's over lunch at work leaves me physically shaking for the rest of the day.

Isn't that just a worry that keeps you a Beryl/Doris though?

I think it is, but at the same time, those relationships are just ballast you need to lose. It's better to have fewer friends than have a load of piss-takers draining you.

I have an old friend who I came so close to dropping because she'd come over, expect to be fed, expect my partner to give us space, my kids to bugger off upstairs, me to sit there and listen to the ins and outs of her problems whilst giving very thoughtful, bespoke advice. After she left, i'd feel a rage come on but i'd focus on just one or two smaller habits - such as always taking a second plateful then consistently leaving a third of it to go in the bin and 'offering' to help with the washing up but saying in the same breath 'oh but you don't have washing up gloves'. The rage could not be justified by these small things I fixated on.

I realised it was because she is controlling and I get absolutely fuck all out of it apart from some well-mannered words of appreciation. So I don't bother to cook if she visits now - just order a pizza. I let the kids wander in and out keep DP engaged in convo. I also talk about my own problems. Her visits are now far shorter and fewer and further between. It's much better like that.

LikeDust your friend doesn’t sound that bad. I’d be a bit put out if I went to catch up with a mate and their partner was there for the whole time, it’s nice to have friend time away from them isn’t it? Unless you’re equally as good friends with both. The food thing, well, if I’d specifically invited someone for dinner I’d feed them, I wouldn’t if I hadn’t. A lot of this does seem to come back down to how other people perceive you. I genuinely couldn’t give a toss. If they don’t like me and don’t want to associate with me that’s their absolute right to feel that way