Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

I agree. Straightforwardly hating Beryl looks like misogyny to me and I don't think she responds well to tough love.

But this thread is actually having an impact in my life. It is subtle, but I am questioning my smaller decisions and slowly groping my way forwards. I can feel a small stream of fresh air through the cracks and it's giving me hope.

There is nothing wrong for caring and doing things for others because you want to, because you love them. Likewise if you are a sahm and you don’t have little babies anymore you should really be the one doing the lions share of housework/finances/shopping etc. I try to look at it like a contract of employment. Everyone is allowed a lunch break, to go to the toilet when they need to (in peace), a holiday, a weekend or sometime each week doing something for themselves (a weekend). If none of those things are possible due to lack of funds/time/someone to watch the kids, You don’t give up your free time to enable everyone else in the household to enjoy theirs.

You want to take pride in your house and be the best mother you can. But being a Beryl makes you ratty, snappy, likely to binge on food/wine, fester with resentment, more prone to illness because you can’t rest and when you’re ill you can’t rest either, more likely to get depressed. There is also a danger you bottle it all up and it explodes one day and before you know your relationship is on a wobble or maybe even over.

We should be watching our new mum friends and family for any Beryl like behaviours. Taking time out for yourself and putting yourself on an equal footing will make you a better mum as you will be happier and kids can tell when there parents are happy.

We should start calling out Beryl behaviour. If someone starts criticising another mums housework standard, say something like, “I can’t get worked up about how clean my skirting boards are, I’d rather be doing x, y, or z.”

Angel yey to bringing back Beryl to her roots and teaching her to stand up for herself and Dust same for me tbh and it hating Beryl is looking like mysogony to me too.

Today I sat near the river and started to think about my relationship with Beryl over the years.

She used to make me happy. I used to feel like kindness is a driving force in the world, in relationships and so on. So Beryl was my inspiration.

But the resentment grew over the years only when Life forced me to have to choose between Beryl and myself. And I resented that I chose Beryl.

It’s not Beryl I should resent. It’s the fact I needed to make a choice in the first place.

I was trying to think hard about how self centred entitlement emerges.

I’m of the believe that ancient patriarchy harmed men with rediculous expectations as well as women.

I believe when a child is told they’re expected to “man up” in situations beyond their control, or when their emotions aren’t tended to as they should because we should “let him be a man”. I think that tends to let the child rely on their survival instincts earlier than they should ...

And when someone is in survival mode, they can hardly be thinkng about anyone but themselves. They had to put themselves first.

I’m not a male apologist. But I have a baby boy, and to me he looks like an innocent angel. He is tiny yet looks out for me and is happy when I’m happy and sad when I’m sad.

One day he will be a man in a relationship. One day he will be an entitled toddler.

Perhaps self-centred entitlement is a phenomena of a child that didn’t have the chance to be nurtured and matured in a loving environment.

Why would I want to trade my loving Beryl for that?

I’d rather just teach my Beryl, that if she wanted to survive and not get burnt out, she should realise that she has limits to how much she can give and that letting an entitled brat be the centre of her focus will just wear her out from those that truly deserve her.

I agree with captainproton. There is a huge difference bewteen the healthy behaviour described in that post and the "pro-Beryl" posts.

"Beryl" is not a good thing either for Beryl or Beryl's children. Beryl is like an addiction and needs to be recognised as such.

I don't think it is helpful captainproton to be prescriptive of how labour should be divided. The word 'should' is kryptonite to people trying to overcome Beryl.

Hi keepers of Beryl.

Could I ask a question please?

I have a Beryl but she doesn't come out for my husband or dc.

She comes out for other females and sometimes, though more rarely, men who are alpha types like fil.

I am not meek or shy. But i am absolutely not able to represent my interests in a group of women or with individual women e.g female relatives or friends.

I have made the experience that when I make suggestions or state my preferences, women turn away, seem cross or put out and I basically sense rejection.

As a consequence, I agree to things I don't want to do or agree to doing them in a way that doesn't work for me. Is this something a Beryl might do or do we need a new name and thread for this behaviour?.

Are Breyls sensitive to female group mentality and the perils of being ostracised if we don't go ahead with what the group 'influencers' want?

Beryl manifests differently in all of us.

Purple I would teach my Beryl to be herself and not be shaped by other people’s judgement. I’d teach her to not be motivated by fear, but rather by conviction.

At the end of the day, Beryl is a fellow female and shouldn’t be told what or what not to do as long as it doesn’t harm others.

As long as she isn’t dragging me down with her. As long as she respects me... as long as she doesn’t steal from me to give to others.

I feel psychotic talking about Beryl now haha 😂

Hmm, I’m not sure about that ILoveHumanity. I think a bit of self centred entitlement is healthy and good in everyone. Not so much that you’re stabbing people in the back but enough that you aren’t afraid to say no, be spontaneous, do things even though others might not like it or agree, rest when you need to, chase your ambitions, stop caring what people think. I’m still following this thread, and I’ve come to another conclusion, perhaps my complete lack of any beryl-like tendencies is down to my cynicism around human nature. I’m a natural born pessimist, even as a four year old I couldn’t stand other kids and found them all annoying. I don’t think anyone can ever be trusted 100%, and my life motto is ‘expect nothing and you’ll never be disappointed’. My incredibly low expectations of humanity don’t exactly compel me to put others before myself and fill the world with fluffiness and nurturing

I'm not sure either. I'm not sure Beryl isn't doing harm. I think Beryl may well be setting a poor example to little Beryl and facilitating undesirable behaviour in little Stanley.

Oh! Angels that makes sense as a description, actually - Beryl is mama bear, and that's fine, but if she's stuck in a cage (of expectations) and prodded with sticks (comments and pass-ag family), then of course she's going to turn mean and twisted.

Alice for the similar experience. I find I have real problems with authority figures now - having broken the hold of bowing to it, I feel like I do a lot of challenging.

Purple It seems less common - Beryl seems to come out for men in the majority; but as you can see I had issues with medical authorities, some people find it's female relatives...I don't see why it couldn't manifest for female groups too. It might be worth you looking back through your childhood friendship groups to see if there was a domineering girl/group that demanded or enforced certain behaviours. Maybe you had a charismatic "mean girl" in your life?

My Beryl is spending a lot of time on MN which has been good for her

I don't see Beryl as kindness and sunshine and what not. That's me..helping out a friend,a coworker,a stranger etc. because I want to . Beryl is the extra..the pressure of doing even more,the expectation to say yes,the piling of even more responsibilities on an already full plate,being accommodating or respectful to people that don't deserve it, feeling bad when work is fine,kids are fine house is fine but dinner is from the freezer(or whatever other combination). Beryl is a demanding bitch with unachievable standards.

There's a big difference between being Beryl for a helpless newborn / toddler (who literally cannot wipe their own bottoms) and being Beryl for a healthy adult man(-child) who is perfectly capable of doing shit work but decides that it is beneath them and expects a woman (by virtue of being a woman) to do it for them.

This is obvious, of course, but it's quite interesting how many times it seems to be expected of the woman that it's their job to do the shit work and how often it somehow ISN'T obvious in real life. How a woman pointing this out is a 'nag'. The man (otherwise a leader of industry) somehow cannot see that sheets need to be changed and toilets scrubbed, and particularly that this needs to happen MORE and MORE OFTEN once kids come into the equation.

Also, very annoying when the man then complains if things aren't pristine (the answer of course is 'do it yourself if you don't like it' but this leads to arguments and sometimes if you're a very tired Beryl it seems like too much extra effort).

I have a friend whose husband literally is Stanley - gets home from a nice rewarding job which he likes, is paid well for, and is given lots of ego boosting praise for, puts his feet up while his wife simultaneously looks after kids and cooks dinner (she works too) and does not offer to help in any way. Claims she is 'making him look bad' if she praises her DC for clearing the table (because he hasn't cleared the table). Unbelievable how otherwise intelligent men can somehow convince themselves they are worth having a servant at their wife's expense and don't see their wife's right to be a human being with free time.

I fail to see how this man shows any love to this wonderful woman at all in his actions. Obviously I don't know the ins and outs of their relationship but it seems a pretty bleak place to be for her.

you should really be the one doing the lions share of housework/finances/shopping etc. This is definitely Beryl speaking. Says who?

I think there is a place for Beryl-lite. The first Beryl if you like. She's there to make sure you keep your baby alive, she's the momma bear that keeps younglings safe. But she's been abused and she's become a monster as a result. She's scared and worn out from years of having more and more work put on her.
Love this. Bang on the money. Beryl has been exploited and is suffering traumatic bonding. She needs TLC and rehabilitation, not ostracising.

Dropping this in as relevant. Good cartoon in Glosswitch's tweet:

twitter.com/glosswitch/status/1060306018494767104

The article is worth a look: 12 non-threatening leadership strategies for women.

www.good.is/articles/12-non-threatening-leadership-strategies-for-women?utm_source=upw&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=1

I think I’m a pretty selfish entitled person in general. My dh, friends and family think otherwise, but it’s easier to be generous and kind when it’s on my terms and when I can manage.

I am a mother of girls so this perhaps makes me feel this is important but I love that they see that dh does much more for me than I do for him, more house work/cooking/ as well as actual care- making tea, buying me presents etc. (He does this because I have disabilities and because I care for girls who have complex disabilities, not an unequal relationship just our balance that works for our family). But I like my daughters see a man doing so much of ‘women’s work’ (ontop of his ‘man’s work’ outside the home). We also use a male cleaner, male tutor and male gardener.

I’m not too sure it this applies to your question, but while these weren’t intensional decisions at the time I think we continue employing these men in caring roles to show our daughters that men can take on the burden that’s put on women also.

I think in terms of arguing the self id debate I find using the expected kindness can be an advantage- pointing out self id won’t meet transsexuals needs -no longer medical issue then there won’t be medical treatment, the likes of prostrate cancer getting lost while smear tests are sent out for tw, and self id would remove grc from protected group presumably.

I think in general I try not to give way to men, to compensate or balance out women doing so in the way we are socialised to. But I guess that’s dependant on safety.

This is a great thread idea op.

I’m on page 5 - like dust, i don’t fit in your theory, I had a very abusive up brining, brought about by my mother who was my primary and openly care giver, but involveda great deal of sexual abuse by men she handed me to as well as the emotional abuse and gas lighting she adored making me the victim of.

I’m not to sure where I fit in terms of self esteem problems. I’m not sure I like the term self esteem. I prefer self worth, as in I think I have value and deserve kindness from myself and others even if I’m good at nothing and have zero going for me. I don’t feel my sense of self should rest on self esteem as it’s too unstable, if it does all the things I am good at may go away (if a runner bases self esteem on being a good runner what happens when she looses her legs??) but anyways I think I have a reasonable sense of self. My self worth is somewhat of a battle, and certainly I came out of childhood with none. But I’m a survivor even though I never feel that way and I think I survived by being selfish. So I can wobble in self worth yet I still will put myself first as that’s how I found a way to survive the extreme abuse I suffered.

As a little kid, when I lived with my life on the line each day, it’s automatic to extend compassion to the abusers, because understanding them and finding a way to feel for them is what helps the child victim stay alive. I guess as an adult I consciously chose to take that compassion back and extend it only to me, to the child I was and to the suffering I was carrying. No one else was going to give me that compassion, and I would have drowned if I didn’t. The need to survive meant I became selfish. So it’s not exclusive to if parents treated kids with value or not, I was on the opposite end of that spectrum and still I didn’t become a people pleaser. I’m not saying I don’t have parts of me that are people pleasers, but over all I’m rather selfish. Even the idea of giving best food to yourself instead struck me as funny as I do that automatically.

for all you had to endure.

it’s not exclusive to if parents treated kids with value or not, I was on the opposite end of that spectrum and still I didn’t become a people pleaser.

I don't think there is a one size fits all. I have just noticed the Beryl come out in a lot of women and some men where the parenting is negligent eg there's a bereavement, alcoholism, disruption, mental illness, NPD, acrimonious divorce where the adults aren't really present and coping and the kids are forced to become little adults ahead of their time to manage things their parents aren't doing, or they learn to completely suppress their own needs and not be an inconvenience to their parents who would tell them they are selfish for speaking up.

At the moment I'm thinking of a mega- Beryl whose parents were hippy stoners with no money and she was born in a commune. The dad left early and now lives in supported housing with a mental illness, her mum would take in people with mental illness as lodgers for extra income, but it was not a cosy, safe situation for a little girl to grow up in.

Everything is such a stress for her now and she plans everything out to the last detail, but has a terrible habit of going out of her way to help every waif and stray at massive cost to her own well-being. Poor thing. I don't think she is going to get over it all any time soon.

Likewise if you are a sahm and you don’t have little babies anymore you should really be the one doing the lions share of housework/finances/shopping etc.

See, this is the point at which you tell Beryl to sod off. Is your husband incapable of picking up some shopping on his way home from work? I very much doubt it.

Small children need taking care of. Adult men should be able to take care of themselves.

See, this is the point at which you tell Beryl to sod off. Is your husband incapable of picking up some shopping on his way home from work? I very much doubt it

The SAHM could pick up some shopping on the way to or back from school or nursery drop off /collection. Children don't need to be looked after by an SAHM when they are in school. They could even do some shopping with the children.

If a couple have arranged their lives that one works out of the home and one doesn't it is not in the least bit unreasonable to expect the one at home might do some shopping or housework in the hours 9-5.

Yeah... no. Because I don't want to.DH drives and I don't. So food shop is delivered,or if we need bits during the week then he can pick them up on his way home. Because he's already out.
Also you'd be hard pressed to find women that don't do "something " either with kids at home or not. The problem becomes when they're expected to do everything. And that applied both to SAHM and working mums.

The problem becomes when they're expected to do everything. And that applied both to SAHM and working mums

I didn't say they should do everything. I'm however surprised at the outrage which is often expressed on here at the idea that SAHMS, paticularly those with children, might be expected to do house work whilst their partners are out working.

For example the shocked emoji face from AAA. What is so unreasonable about it? It is extremely unreasonable for the person at home to expect the other party to pitch in on house work after work if there was time and opportunities for the SAHMS to do it.