Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

Sorry about my typos...

Angry sorry I didn’t address your point.

So to me, I feel like everyone has or had at some point a mini Beryl.. or perhaps I believe so at this point.

But not everyone has the Beryl which has grown accustomed to slave labour and abuse.

IYSWIM

I think having basic compassion and empathy and the urge to take care of small vulnerable creatures is a different thing to Beryl. I do not think that men who act like giant toddlers do so because women made them like that - they're adults and are perfectly capable of deciding to act accordingly, be less selfish, etc.

"why can't you be more like Beryl?" sounds like another chapter heading...

Another cat world example. Sorry.
Out of the kittens. When they were nursing, the biggest male at birth would climb up and push the other kittens out of the way until he got his chosen nipple. It was pitiful seeing the weakest one getting pushed out of the way and getting no milk. (Without human interference he would have probably died) As time went on the differences between the kittens sizes and weight became increasingly marked.

The biggest one is Stanley. He is utterly entitled and expects to get first dibs at everything. He is also really possessive about the mum and I still sometimes see the mum acquiesce and let him mock nurse on her dry nipples even though he is now twice her size.

So I wonder if being a self-centred prick is partly instinctual as is being the self-sacrificing martyr?

Also, a bat world example.
There's a species of bat (I cant remember which) where the mothers have nurseries on the roof of their cave. If a mother didn't get enough food, they'll beg another mother to regurgitate some. Apparently they always remember who gave them food and who didn't. If a mother bat who had refused to regurgitate for her 'sister' in the past begs in her hour of need, she gets firmly blanked.

So doing stuff you don't want to do can have long term survival benefits.

It is only really a problem if there is no give and take. That's what you get in humans - pathological givers and pathological takers coming together in a parasitic relationship.

AnyDust all too interesting !

What’s the Male between the adult Male cat and adult female cat ? I feel like we still comparing men to toddlers 😂. I guess maternal instincts are similar across species.

In the bat scenario, I think it’s a fair but lesson, we should learn to never help someone who wouldn’t do the same for us in the hour of need.

I wonder what the children bat/cat expectations from the male population is? Or perhaps a species closer to humans ?

Could it be that by default we are all born entitled (makes sense for survival), but childbearing and childbearing hormones (as well as looking up to our mum from an early age as girls do) curbed our entitlement. While men didn’t get this opportunity and let their entitlement prosper?

What’s the dynamic between *
LikeDust*

Sorry! Bad night

Loving this thread. Lots to reflect on. I need to learn strategies to evict Beryl and Mary the Martyr who are long term tenants.

I’ve ingested a lot of societal tropes over the years about good wives and mothers shoulds. Standards that husbands and fathers aren’t held to.

But let me start with a win. With DC1 I was a total martyr to Ds’s Immediate needs, to the extent that my self care suffered and it would take me to midday to shower, dress & have a drink. With DC 2 I initially felt terribly guilty for neglecting DC1 to feed DC2, but this became something of a turning point. Not only, would DC2 be absolutely fine if I got DC1 a drink and a snack first, but I could have a drink, a snack and a wee too!

It’s obvious isn’t it? Unless you have Beryl Brain that is. Put your own oxygen on before attending to others - you don’t need permission!

tricky interesting. I'm not sure how I would respond if my GP said that. Problem is, if ones partner isn't stepping up and hasn't for years then LTB is also stressful, energy sapping and depressing. And if the woman still loves him it's even worse. There is not an easy answer.
You might find this interesting www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/mg22429941-200-the-lifelong-cost-of-burying-our-traumatic-experiences/amp/

humanity this is interesting about hormones and behaviour
blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/04/07/do-testosterone-and-oestrogen-affect-our-attitudes-to-fairness-trust-risk-and-altruism/#.W-FhXzmnydM

Put your own oxygen on before attending to others - you don’t need permission!

Women with a Beryl need this stuck to their mirror (unless they are so busy with Beryling the don't look at the mirror until midday ).

As for the Stanley thing, food, the biggest = the most dominant, etc. I remember an MNer citing an example that anthropologists discovered that for millennia bones show that female skeletons show more signs of childhood malnutrition than males in the same group.

In my experience males seem better at doing this slightly angry grunting neanderthal demand for what they want that is hard to ignore/not repond to - it is full of glottal stops and plosives. For example coming the door and going "Urgh! Im ! hUngry!" whilst following their tunnel vision to the fridge. Or "whERE's! mY! kEYs!" from another room while they angrily bash about.

I used to do exactly what my mother does and rush to feed my brother the second he came through the door to humanise the angry, unpleasant prick - it's as though his hunger is everyone else's problem.

I've noticed some babies have also mastered the 'arresting scream that can't be ignored' as default rather than escalating from a gentle grizzle and I bet my brother was like that with my mum.

For me, overcoming Beryl involves not jumping up when a forceful, charged up person starts making demanding noises - even if they seem impatient and distressed. I find it really hard.

Wonderful thread,

Most of the Beryling I've come across has been a control strategy. It keeps every one dependant on you, keeps them where you can keep an eye on them. while gaining Brownie points from other Beryls.

While both caring for others and caring what others think are in my opinion both useful and constructive, taken to extreme they are quite the opposite. IMO All the CFerthreads have a non-Beryl and big Beryl components. We need a "Beryl light" .

Having said that I've just eaten burnt toast cause it was given to me and I can't work out what the non Beryl stance would be.

My advice would be to avoid allowing passive aggressive arseholes into your home

Where I can I do this.

However worst one are my Mother and MIL who incidentally still angry decades later about their female relatives, now deceased, doing the same to them and who I can’t avoid having in the house.

It’s usually after such visits than random others people’s comment, in areas like housework and mothering, that normally I’d ignore tend to trigger Beryl’s appearance.

My Mother I can put under control – what every sate the house it’s the same just as however long I’ve owned an appliance she knows it better than I do.

My MIL it’s more about competing with other females in particular areas, food, weight clothes, housework – I used to think it was directed just at me but overtime I’ve seen her do it with pretty much every other woman.

Since I had PFB MIL had been masking criticism of me under guise of being helpful. It started days after with her “helpfully” fussing about the insides of my cupboards I’m in pain and trying to establish BF but me complaining about this was being ungrateful and petty.

Interesting after years of redirecting, ignoring I’ve perfected being absent even when we guests staying with us which meant DH got all the fussing and “helpfulness” he got angry -and frustrated with MIL – no one not even me who he vented to told him being angry was wrong or that he was imaging things.

Same with MIL pattern of refusing to leave some housework item usually because your busy doing something more urgent – then pestering every minute for something or for bit of help with this bit so in end you end up doing it and she walks off to sit on sofa having “helped” -when I realised I blame myself for being manipulated and thought I was stupid– when I pointed out to DH she’d done it to him -his reaction was anger.

I think half the battle with me in realising what’s going on.

"why can't you be more like Beryl?" sounds like another chapter heading.

Agreed! It tends to be social policing of some parties from which other parties are free!

And, I'd be happy to think this is generational and will cease to exist with my generation (apart from in some small sects) but I was brought up to believe that if I wasn't conforming to particular appearance, cleanliness, and service standards it was because I was the devil's gateway to evil and the reason we are in this postlapsarian state (as were all girls/women). (Mary Daly didn't exaggerate this nonsense at all.)

I never remember a sermon or teaching during my childhood about the duties of men - apart from keeping their chattels (women and children) in line. That said, we lived in a notoriously violent and criminal area but it didn't stop the social and other strictures being enforced for the women.

I used to do exactly what my mother does and rush to feed my brother the second he came through the door to humanise the angry, unpleasant prick - it's as though his hunger is everyone else's problem

Does this overlap in any way with this article about women, by default, feeling the need to emotionally manage angry men, because...? (There's a link to a discussion about emotional labour upthread.) Why does it seem so implausible to teach adults to be responsible for their own emotional regulation? Over on a thread about the upcoming #manbox meeting in Manchester, a poster comments that the existence of the Man Box will of itself prevent some of the men who might benefit from it from attending.

Why is the less violent gender the one learning all the emotional self regulation?
Because women are expected to regulate the emotions of men as well as themselves. They have to sharpen their emotional regulation skillz because they’ll be regulating for two even when they’re not pregnant. This has been a thing that’s starting to get noticed in feminist circles; the concept of unpaid emotional labor that women are expected to supply. This takes many forms (and I’ve written about this before) and at its most benign looks like listening, support and empathy. However, as it becomes more noxious, women are expected to read the emotions men and proactively protect them from their own negative emotions.

medium.com/@emmalindsay/men-dump-their-anger-into-women-d5b641fa37bc

There’s been some really interesting points on the thread. I grew up in a household where if you didn’t do as you’re told, anticipate the man’s every want and tried to stand up for yourself in any way you either got screamed at or worse. I don’t think this is actually that uncommon when you read about people’s lives. I think if you have an ounce of compassion for anyone else you might see that unhelpful coping mechanisms are learned fairly early on in life, might not be based in logical thought and are very hard to break.

I’m very fortunate as I live with a man who does not expect beryl (though like many of us he’s lazy if someone else is going to do the work without asking for help), so where I do go into that mode it is not exploited. I try my best not to get into situations where my eagerness to please and eagerness to not cause confrontation is not used against me.

Even with my somewhat beryl tendencies I get intakes of breath from other women when I say I don’t iron or I use frozen chopped veg instead of chopping my own or I say if their husband cares so much about having a clean house he should do it himself. It’s a very rare woman that does not give a shiny shite about any aspect of being a beryl ime.

If I’d had the confidence in myself that I wasn’t a fat, lazy, selfish bitch and actually saw myself as I was I think my younger years would have been very different. I hope I am getting better at looking after myself and I know I’ll be damned before I become the family martyr. It’s hard work though, for me as I’m sure it is for many.

So many interesting thoughts coming up in this thread!

Alice, I wonder if that "baby MUST come first" drive is common to a) all first borns or b) only first borns where the mother is isolated (ie Western society nuclear family) rather than when there's a live-in support network of female relative? My experience with my eldest was all kinds of messed up - bereavement, hospitalization on high dependency, feeding issues, then virtually no support network. I have no frame of reference for what the care of a first baby under normal circumstances looks like and I spent a good six months watching her every breath for convulsions and feeding her at the first squeak as she was so tiny (surprisingly she is neither spoilt nor horrible! ). I think I went through martyr and spent time as shrivelled corpse.

On feeding the hungry man - no experience as both father and husband are mild-mannered chaps, but there was a great thread in the Teenagers section the other day about how to discipline boys when they're still young but much bigger than you. At this distance I can really see this "placate the big man before they get violent" tactic in play when you've got adolescent boys all over the place with their emotions. I find it kind of chilling, tbh.

One last thought that's interested me through this thread is the social pressure to be above reproach - it came to me initially as I've read a fair bit of historical fiction set in Asia - Japanese, Chinese and Indian culture in particular - and there is this concept of "face", mentsu in Japanese. It's where a lot of the excruciating politeness comes from, hierarchies, not challenging elders or seniors, and elaborate customs and so on. We're looser about it here, but only in the last couple of generations - saving face is what led to things like pristine scrubbed doorsteps and packing your daughter off out the back door to have an illegitimate baby in secret. It's a big part of the class system, keeping everyone in their place by having women police women over the slightest dusty mantelpiece. PC Beryl is always on the case.

Interesting that you picked that up Silent I’d had an “interesting” up bringing and no living close family so I can believe that I overcompensated with PFB in an attempt to build my perfect family.

This leads me to think that failing, and being seen to fail when the circumstances are against us is something we need to do, especially when we wouldn’t have the same expectations of men in a similar situation. There was a headteacher a while back I seem to remember saying that she thought girls should fail more in order to be successful.

I had some very useful counselling a couple of years ago with my take homes focused on recognising that my personal history wasn’t my fault and becoming less of a people pleaser. I’m still practicing the not people pleasing part, but so far, the sky hasn’t fallen in when I’ve said no to anything.

I am imagining melting my Beryl, like the wicked witch in the wizard of oz.

I can really see this "placate the big man before they get violent" tactic in play when you've got adolescent boys all over the place with their emotions. I find it kind of chilling, tbh

I wonder if Beryl originally evolved as a strategy to avoid male violence.

Finding this thread fascinating. My marriage 20 years ago was short lived on discovering that my handsome husband seemed to have transformed into Frank Spencer, and my previously dormant Beryl started to come to the fore. Until the rage building up inside me couldn’t be contained any more and I ended the marriage. Since then I have a DP but no real desire to marry and certainly none to have children. I know women manage to have both without necessarily being possessed by Beryl the Peril but it just always seemed a pathway to putting yourself last, all the time. I have been described in the past as arrogant, bossy and unfeminine, which seems to be the price you pay for not being very Berylly. I still feel bad if the house is a midden and there’s no food in the kitchen, I know nobody is judging but somewhere that mini Beryl is still peeping away.

Alice terror of failing was definitely an issue, but it was about pleasing authority figures rather than husband/family. The health visitors just about drove me batshit with her slow weight gain and I definitely overcompensated by making sure I looked completely "together". Always made up, clean clothes on us both, shiny pram, every piece of documentation ever, always early for appointments. I was so scared of going back into hospital and failing at breastfeeding. In my head I COULD NOT show weakness to authority in any way, no hint of PND, anxiety, difficulty coping. I really could have done with counselling, tbh as there was a lot unresolved when I came to have my second. Even driving past the hospital terrified me for years. I was very lucky to have a good BF support group that was independent, though. I'd show up and just fall apart; no "face" needed. Beryl was not allowed through the door!

Re making mistakes, my DD1's science teacher told her outright that he wants her to make mistakes. She's really good at the subject, but doesn't speak up much - he's pushing her to try out her theories out loud so she can see how the scientific process works and develop her critical thinking, and has assured her she doesn't need to fear getting things wrong. I wanted to high five him in the middle of parents' evening

Silent a lot of that resonates including ”refusing” to have PND just because I was high risk. Hmmmm. It took me a long time to admit to myself that counselling was something I needed to do, but even belatedly it was hugely helpful.

I also had a somewhat demanding Health Visitor, something that seems to be a regular feature of the MN boards. My reaction was to internalise her comments and see them as cricism of me.

DH took DS to be weighed one day when I was at work and declared he was never going again because of the HV’s attitude. How I wish I’d done the same instead of feeling compelled to attend. Beryl the peril again.

I’ve been giving this thread a lot of thought.

I keep changing my attitude towards Beryl. Me and her have an unstable love hate relationship .

I don’t know why it feels a bit wrong to just hate her.

It's taken me a full day to read this. It's absolutely fascinating and very eye opening.

I think there is a place for Beryl-lite. The first Beryl if you like. She's there to make sure you keep your baby alive, she's the momma bear that keeps younglings safe. But she's been abused and she's become a monster as a result. She's scared and worn out from years of having more and more work put on her.

Maybe we need to radicalise Beryl. Take her back to her roots and nurture her, therefore nurturing ourselves.