Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

I know this is a bit of a shit analogy. But with my cats I see this. The mum didn't use her litter tray for about 4 days after giving birth. She only ate or drank if I brought it to her. When they got onto solid food she'd beg for it, then sit back in the kitchen step while the kittens chowed away. She is the feline Beryl - however she does hiss and tell them to fuck off if they try to nurse from her now.

But she never stops them barging her out of the way of the food bowl unless she has been out all night and is absolutely starving. It really annoys me the way the kittens act like such entitled little shits pushing her out of the way and she just takes it.

So I believe there may be an element of instinct to Beryl.

How do we know Beryl is a patriarchal programming rather than human instinct?

I was more assertive once I had children and certainly learned to care less about upsetting others - wasn't impolite just more assertive.

However, over time - there's been a drip drip effect – things are shoved onto me not always by DH but wider expectations. I bat many back but there are ones that get through.

Language changes – DH having kids is talked about him babysitting or finally getting through to DH that him putting his clothes in washing machine isn’t him doing me a favour.

Current thing I have to watch is being left with coats or equipment – used to child who didn’t want to do something would often prefer to be with me – now they often are old enough or want to join in – not just DH and the kids but wider family are awful for this.

I realised on the beach this summer I was being left on beach with stuff – towels bags purses– only realised when my girls offer to do it so I could go in sea – not my DS or DH – I hadn’t realised I was setting such a poor example till then.

This article is quite interesting in view of this thread www.the-pool.com/news-views/opinion/2018/44/female-rage-anger-self-help-people-pleasing-mental-health

ArkeNOTen

I think Beryl maybe has been influenced by religion too.
My immediate thought was "protestant work ethic", but I think there's some Puritan in there too. And that old saw "the devil makes work for idle hands". All good ways of keeping women busy and stopping them talking to each other - the gossipy neighbours over the fence are a figure of fun for a reason.

Amusingly because books are pretty much my job, I sometimes feel rather guilty for doing housework when I should be reading...

I don't have a Beryl but dear Lord do other people get pissed off and irritated about it.

My DH's family spent the first 5 years of our relationship trying to bring out my inner Beryl through hints, only contacting me, passive aggressive behaviour until they realised it never worked.

My mother and sister outright shame me for not martyring myself and have already told me that I'll have no-one to blame but myself if DH leaves me.

There is a significant social cost to not having a Beryl because a lot of society will judge you as lacking, not against the standards of pulling your weight but against their expectations as you as a wife, mother, and woman.

Yes @silentcrow both of those. Don’t let anyone have any time to think!

echo I think the pool get a lot if article ideas from this board

There is a significant social cost to not having a Beryl because a lot of society will judge you as lacking, not against the standards of pulling your weight but against their expectations as you as a wife, mother, and woman.

Yes - my Beryl only started caring about housework more than bare minimum that DH continues to cares thanks to Pa comments usually from other women after they come into my house.

There have been time I’ve ended so anxious that I’ve ended up exhausted and resentful before the event we are hosting.

There is a significant social cost to not having a Beryl because a lot of society will judge you as lacking, not against the standards of pulling your weight but against their expectations as you as a wife, mother, and woman

Who exactly is doing this judging? And unless your standards are so low you come to the attention of social services what are they going to do about it?

I'm generally unconvinced by claims by feminists that "society expects this and society expects that of women".

I don't think society does. I think most women are capable of thinking sod that I'm doing/ not doing whatever and getting on with their lives.I don't know anyone in real life who spends as much time as the average feminist seems to do fretting about whether or not she is meeting some nebulous standard.

So who exactly is this "society" standing in judgement of you and deciding you don't meet "their expectations"? You do realise nobody actually cares?

Pa comments usually from other women after they come into my house.

I sometimes feel the mn cuteseyfied term 'judgy' belies an ugly instinct to turn women into anxious, scurrying Beryls. Who the fuck does care about toilet brushes or teatowels enough to make impassioned posts on MN about it? Those posters spread paranoia complexes like noxious gas. Do they really care that much?

My advice would be to avoid allowing passive aggressive arseholes into your home.

@LassWiADelicateAir it's hard to see and get it when you haven't lived/grown surrounded by a "what will the neighbours think" mentality. When reputation must be protected at all costs. When what others think/say about you gives you a sense or pride and achievement. When arguments are kept quiet because of the neighbours,but in front of the kids it's fine. When opinion and reputation is more important than safeguarding.
When no matter who you are,what you do,what you achieved is reduced to what others think of you.

And it's fucking hard(and sometimes painful) to not give a shit and follow your own path when surrounded/raised by people like that.

I think it’s different if you have paid cleaning staff at home Lass.

That's a really interesting article about female anger. As I have become more feminist I have started to notice how disempowered some of my female patients are (GP) . They are often struggling because they are trying to manage far too much with too little support but they struggle to recognise that. Beryl is so strong in many cases that they don't see that their partners are Stanley's.

Interesting that some PPs are saying that Beryl has made them depressed. I fairly often think this with patients and increasingly try to pick up on it with them. I'd like to prescribe feminism but lots of them already look at me like I have 2 heads when I suggest that their partner needs to step up! I wonder if PPs feel that a GP picking up on it would have been helpful or whether you needed to wait for your personal epiphany?

Anecdotally I certainly see the link with some chronic pain as well as mental health problems.

I'd like to prescribe feminism but lots of them already look at me like I have 2 heads when I suggest that their partner needs to step up! I wonder if PPs feel that a GP picking up on it would have been helpful or whether you needed to wait for your personal epiphany?

Probably careful handling and it would depend on individual women. I think some would find it helpful to be given permission to assert themselves, consider themselves, and ask others to step up.

Others might feel nowhere near that, particularly if they're concealing domestic violence?

But there must be lots somewhere between that - and particularly a fair number in troubled relationships who might benefit from looking at the Freedom Programme. Even if they just read about it, they'll know it's there and they might recall it in the future when they're more ready to consider it?

freedomprogramme.co.uk

Having paid cleaners has nothing to do with it. Why would you care what the neighbours think? Are you living in Eastenders or Coronation Street?

Feminism hasn't achieved very much if women are measuring their sense of worth by whether or not their neighbours approve of their housekeeping.

The main "why can't you be more like Beryl?" person in my life is my stepmother. This has resulted in my having a rather distant relationship with her, which frustrates my dad, but because I don't have a Beryl I see that as his issue to manage rather than mine. First time they came to our house I got a "Stepmother was very disappointed in aspects A and B of your domestic arrangements" letter from my dad and we had a fairly epic argument about it, with him going "well your mother brought you up to do X and Y" and me going "actually my mother very deliberately did not bring me up to feel like the world would end if my coffee table wasn't polished daily, and let's have a chat about how unreasonable your expectations of her were".

And then there's the auntie who thinks that my not changing my name when I got married is deeply hurtful to DH and he must be so sad every time I get anything in the post that's not addressed to "Mrs His Name" (he's not, doesn't care). The social dynamics of how women attempt to enforce patriarchal bollocks on each other and why are fascinating in a grim sort of way.

Well I personally don’t care what they think Lass, because I’m posher and richer than you . And I have a cleaner so they judge her and not me .

But I understand that many other women do care. I have a tiny bit of insight into the lives of women who are not like me or my neighbours.

And I know it doesn’t really help to say “ well I don’t care about that so you shouldn’t either”.

And yes I agree - feminism has a long way to go before women have achieved equality and we have dismantled the patriarchy.

But feminists did campaign so that women like you could become solicitors. Here is information about the process of women in the legal profession since 1919

first100years.org.uk/digital-museum/timeline/

Angry, I can truly relate.

Dust very interesting about your cat!

I’m gonna be a devils advocate and throw this in there :

• if Beryl was our instinct, or perhaps an exaggerated phenomena facilitated by our instinct, wouldn’t it be a bit oppressive if we live a life forcing ourselves to go against nature and “expecting” the upcoming generation of girls to not listen o their instincts?

Are we setting new expectations and standards for ourselves based on reacting to current patriarchy, rather than focusing on nurturing our own strength and working with our instincts?

Isn’t happiness when you align your conscience with your day to day achievements?

Yes we might achieve a better sense of justice in relationships, but would we be losing sight of who we really see ourselves to be ?

Am sorry I know this isn’t what everyone wants to hear, but I believe a lot of us are thinkng this at the back of our minds so I’d get the elephant in the room out of the way and discuss it.

To clarify, I’m not saying we completely submit our willpower to Beryl... but I think going full savage against it might be a type of self harm?!

I have absolutely no instinct to be Beryl, as can be seen by my less than friendly reaction to stepmother's attempts to turn me into one. Am I not human, or just not a woman somehow?

No, I hear what you mean about the instincts. The instinct to care is a good one - otherwise babies would never survive. I am naturally caring. The trouble is when that’s all I am expected to be - that’s when caring goes against what I really want. I’m expected to care - to clear up the cat pee and hunt for the mislaid p.e. Kit - I did both this evening and didn’t really want to do either - other members of my family could have - but didn’t. It’s annoying and exhausting.

"Dismantling the patriarchy" has such nice a ring to it doesn't it? Pity it's so nebulous and unspecific. Most of the gripes about "Beryl" and wife-work could be resolved by doing something oneself (or more properly not doing). Taking charge of your life , not pandering to a partner. But hey ho , it's the patriarchy, nothing can be done about it.

Am I supposed to be impressed by your boasting Kristina? I have no idea who you are, nor do you know me- bragging about being richer is a bit silly really. Is that a crutch to prop up your self -esteem?

I get the impression that moaning about "Beryl " is actually far more enjoyable than doing anything about getting rid of "Beryl".

I think most mammals have the instinct to take care of small helpless members of their own species, and even of other species, and the fact that some men fail to do so is down to socialization and the assumption that a woman will do it so they don't have to.

Still agreeing with everything you’re saying, Lass. I don’t know anyone IRL who is THAT wrapped up in what people think of them. In fact, the one person I did meet who was like this, was a man - an ex of mine, whose obsession with being perceived as ‘mr middle class and ordinary’ really got up my nose. I used to ask him all the time ‘who’s THEY? Why do you care what THEY think?’ He was incredulous that I had the audacity t continue wearing clothes he didn’t like because in his world, women cared so much about what their partners thought that they’d bear that in mind when getting dressed. Well, not I. I wore than damn cardigan he hated every day to prove a point.

On the instinct thing, I think I mentioned earlier that my natural instinct is to rebel - exactly like the cardigan situation, he said he didn’t like it so I wore it every day because I found it hilarious to see him roll his eyes every time I put it on. Reading these replies I feel like I’ve been socialised backwards somehow. I’d love some sort of scientific study looking into why some women have a Beryl and some don’t

johnny is love that study too!

Angry totally not! I don’t think I explained myself properly, sorry!

So I am saying I think that there is a possibility that let’s say miniberyl is an instinct, as pp mentioned that everyone has to look after someone more vulnerable.

I wonder whether this instinct is expressed differently in males than in females as it is in the animal kingdom ? We both look out for the vulnerable but we turn selfless as females and the males do something else ? Protective ? Donno..

I do wonder wonder whether our mini baryls was abused ? By men who behave less like adults and more like big babies?

Perhaps we allowed them to be like big babies? We spoilt them and smothered them like we did our own babies ?

Perhaps it’s not that we need to get rid of our beautifully compassionate beryl? But we need to stop perceiving men as babies? And we need to stop being doormats to our own kids?

Perhaps the issue of society - injustice and family breakdowns- has stunted the growth of our inner child and we seem to be only relating to others, even adults, by communicating with their inner child too?

And now I’m gonna spell out something controversial...

Do you think that in our pursuit of rebelling against patriarchy and suffrage, we might’ve unintentionally, become attracted to males who seem least threatening, hence causing some natural selection to men who behave as vulnerable babies ?

In essence, I don’t want to hold my Beryl responsible alone... I don’t want to divorce my Beryl. I feel part of it is beautiful.

I feel like, we might’ve just allowed mini Beryl to be abused and go into slave labor. Its the abuse and slave labor that I want to be angry about, and I don’t want to blame patriarchy for it like a helpless being.. I should’ve known how to stand up for her better too?

Does that make sense ?