Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

Johnny I don't think you have enough information in that post to make a judgement about how 'bad' she is. There is obviously a massive back story and if she was that bad a person I would have gone NC.

"I also suffer a lot of paralysis about 'the impact on others' and feeling like I don't have 'permission' to factor my own needs in."

This is totally me. And the ridiculous thing is that I live alone and have no kids and yet doing stuff just for me (something as simple as going for a walk) seems impossible sometimes. Like I'm waiting for someone to tell me it's OK or to give me a purpose to do it. I don't know if this is Beryl related but I definitely relate to the feeling of paralysis.

I think one of Beryl's great allies is the concept of nagging. Beryl is desperately worried about being seen as a 'nag' if she has to perfectly reasonably ask for what she wants or needs more than once.

Place marking

So how did Beryl evolve into existence and why is she mainly haunting female souls?

So how did Beryl evolve into existence and why is she mainly haunting female souls?

My money is on her being a coping mechanism for people born into into a life with little power, control or social status who are subject to unfair criticism and unjustly held responsible for things where their impact is actually limited in the scheme of things.

Basically she is symptomatic of women and girls low social status. However to her credit, Beryl has probably helped to keep women and children alive in a male dominated world throughout history.

I have thought of some other Ways to overcome Beryl especially with the stress of raising children and all the admin. If you both work why not put the fathers email address down as the main point of contact for all emails/parentmail. Likewise if the father is in an office sat by a phone all day he is the best person to take any phone calls in an emergency.

I have thought of some other Ways to overcome Beryl especially with the stress of raising children and all the admin. If you both work why not put the fathers email address down as the main point of contact for all emails/parentmail. Likewise if the father is in an office sat by a phone all day he is the best person to take any phone calls in an emergency.

Agree in principle but there are men out there who would ignore all emails and let the children suffer.

Upthread people talked about lack of consequences but I think there are more consequences these days - more women do divorce because their Hs just won't share the work (often discussed in relationships - many times the women will say that they're still doing everything after the split but how freeing it is for there not to be the resentment bourne of another adult in the house refusing to do their fair share). I think the resentment about this causes among some men has fuelled the rise of MRAs. There is often absolute rage that a woman would kick them out because they're lazy.

@Ineedacupofteadesperately - i have to say in some ways it's hard not to have someone there at times just to lean on/Sound off with, but after my split with DS's father I found life a lot easier with regards to housework, and home management. It was like having a non communicative toddler at times.

And I also get two completely free weekends a month to get on top of things, indulge myself and catch up with friends.

Because of this, I have a strong social network, and I can only let myself down. Which rarely happens.

I think the way for me to avoid Beryl is to keep her in the "potential partners" house and never find him. Or her again.

Sometimes in the interest of being "kind" I find myself holding in and holding back from asserting my opinions, concerns and insights. Because to say certain things and even to openly explore some ideas can be taken as hurtful to others. So I self-censor and find myself raging internally and be-rating myself for a lack of courage. Kindness can hurt, its often depleting and I'd like to deprogram the entire mindset

There are 2 separate situations though. Scenario 1 - you turn yourself into Beryl and your partner stands back and let’s you, after all you seem happy and his life is sweet and easy, win-win for him. However one day you wake up and realise you don’t want to be Beryl anymore and he agrees/reluctantly agrees he should do more. He then does more and gets on with it, perhaps moaning how hard it is. Use this as an opportunity to say, “yes dear that’s why I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown drinking wine every night.”

Scenario 2 - your partner expects you to be Beryl. Believes all women have some natural ability and desire to do all menial work. That for some reason owning a penis renders him incapable of boring housework or practising spellings. No amount of reasonable dialogue will change his mind. You stop being Beryl he still won’t care how it affects the kids and you are trapped. You only have 2 options, be Beryl or ditch the baggage.

I would say we can only advise on Scenario 1. Nothing is going to change scenario 2 other than your relationship ending.

My dh used to be married to a Beryl. But it wasn’t me, she left him for someone else. My DH admits he was arrogant, lazy and selfish, that he had a hand in her being unhappy and starting an affair. It wasn’t until he had to look after his son on his weekends and school holidays that he realised what a insufferable arse he’d been. In his defence his mother is a complete Beryl, and he lived at home with his parents until his 30s and she did everything for him, his brother and father. One of the reasons I fell in love with him was because he put his son before work. By then he was divorced, I was a colleague, he was the only one whoever asked to leave early to go to parents evenings etc. Incidentally in city type jobs, this is never seen as a good thing by the boss whether you are male or female.

It is possible for both women and men to change. There is hope!

Sad we’re using Beryl as that was my mum’s middle name and she was incredible and a fantastic role model for un-Beryl-like behaviour.

I haven’t read the whole thread but a very important place to start to me is with boundaries. Be very clear about your own boundaries and be aware of them being invaded, if you don’t recognize it immediately, it’s usually the case when you feel uncomfortable or stressed when relating to someone, there’s a good chance they are crossing, or trying to cross a line.

Another thing that comes to mind is to put yourself forward for leadership positions or more responsibility when you would like the role and only self-confidence is stopping you. So much of the time unqualified men will believe they can do something and will put themselves forward, so don’t be afraid to stick out when Beryl would encourage you to blend in and not rock the boat.

“Kindness” often seems to be about having a support role while you tell everyone else how wonderful they are and smooth everyone else’s ego. It’s about anticipating others emotional needs. Be willing to give Beryl the support role while you take a role where you put your own ambitions first. Ambition should not be a dirty word. (To be honest when I reread that “put your own ambitions first” was actually quite a shocking sentence for me! It just seems so selfish and self-centered, but no bloke would EVER think that inappropriate!)

I stopped being Beryl to my husband after he really hurt me. He now doesn't like me very much. I previously thought he was a good guy , he would often point out I was being Beryl to others and would encourage me to stand up for myself. Actually I now think that maybe he thought Beryl should only be reserved for him.

I would say we can only advise on Scenario 1. Nothing is going to change scenario 2 other than your relationship ending.

Indeed. You can't make a selfish, sexist man into a supportive, respectful partner just by trying. Which is why LTB is both one of the most important things women can hear from other women and one of the primary reasons that this site has always been targeted by MRAs of various stripes.

I think Beryl maybe has been influenced by religion too.

I’m not religious but I have a good friend who is Catholic and knowledgeable on the history of religion in society in a way I am not. We explained to me a while back how organised religion has affected society - and in particular in regard to using our free time. We feel guilty for doing ‘nothing’ - or nothing that isn’t useful ins some way. Hence o feel guilty if I read a book in the daytime or do something for ‘me’ if there is washing up to be done or shoes to pick up or ... anything really.

This is a big subconscious barrier for women in particular I think. Beryl has definitely been influenced by this.

‘The devil makes work for idle hands’ and all that.

I think we need to have a name for the pathological piss-taker who could not exist without Beryl. The name 'Stanley' springs to mind - and you don't need to be male to have one.

In my view Stanley is pretty delusional about his contribution and believes Beryl just loves to do what she does (everything necessary & more) and views her frantic efforts with with a raised eyebrow of amusement. "Ha Ha! look how Beryl creates unnecessary work for herself, she could be relaxing reading the papers with me".

Stanley is happy to take credit for all of Beryl's work - in fact, even though Beryl is constantly scurrying around doing every thing and slightly irritating him as she goes, her work is invisible to Stanley and unappreciated, so he actually takes credit for her work with genuine, but complete misplaced pride.

He is extremely self important in a way that matches Beryl's lack of self-importance.
He hates being disturbed or diverted from doing or thinking about what he deems the important things.

He gets annoyed with Beryl but at the same time is entirely dependent upon her.

Stanley is the guy who comes home and says 'Oh my God, I am knackered, I just can't do anything tonight, I'll probably just go to bed', while failing to asking his partner if she's tired, if there's anything she might need help with, and then stays up until midnight playing games or watching telly while partner runs around putting kids to bed, making dinner and washing up.

i have to say in some ways it's hard not to have someone there at times just to lean on/Sound off with But Mick does Stanley ever really let Beryl do that?

As Echo says Stanley is the guy who comes home and says 'Oh my God, I am knackered, I just can't do anything tonight, I'll probably just go to bed', while failing to asking his partner if she's tired, if there's anything she might need help with

I would say also it's possible to have a marriage which oscillates between Scenarios 1 and 2, and for it to be option 1 for some things but option 2 for others. E.g. men who will help with housework but refuse to see all the admin associated with children as something that needs to happen or is valued in any way (doctors appointments, school meetings, PE kit and all other stuff for school, school uniform etc).

My observation also is that the more Beryl gives, the more Stanley is a dick - nothing will ever be good enough if you don't stand up for yourself. I have one friend in a marriage where she is the perfect housekeeper, wife and mother and works so bloody hard every day doing nothing for herself and her H still complains and says HE feels 'underappreciated' - never EVER asking himself if anyone (particularly him) appreciates what she does (the kids don't of course, but I think kids don't until they reach a certain age). She'll never leave him for various specific reasons I won't go into (although she is very religious and that's part of it). I never really know how to help her though have encouraged her to do things like ask the question whether he thinks she's appreciated when he starts moaning about how underappreciated he is. I really hate him (secretly of course) - he doesn't see what a jewel of a person he has and how badly he treats her. He does occasionally shower her with gifts, but I think she'd appreciate help with the housework a lot more.

Oh it has also struck me that Anne from the Famous Five is Beryl. I really hate how the boys gaslight her into being Beryl - there is a lot of 'How much Anne loves doing all the washing up / housework' and 'she's such a great little housekeeper' - diminishing the value of what she does and gaslighting her into thinking she wants to do all the shitwork at the same time. It's completely enraging. I want to flush Julian's head down a toilet (that Anne hasn't cleaned recently).

Another observation (napping toddler, I am defying Beryl by posting here and not cleaning) - you HAVE to be Beryl for little kids. They literally do need you to wipe their bottoms. As they grow up it is then quite easy to carry on doing everything for them, because of those early years where you had to and because they've grown up expecting it. It is actually quite hard work undoing that.

With DD1 I am in the process of getting her to do more for herself. FWR has been really helpful to me in terms of how to discuss this with her and she's really getting better now. (she's 8). With DD2 I am much more conscious of getting her to 'help' all the time from a young age - even though at this age (pre-2) she is actually hindering me, in the long run I think it's important she sees that housework is not just my job.

I want to flush Julian's head down a toilet (that Anne hasn't cleaned recently).

I agree it takes awareness and conscious deprogamming to get kids to do more for themselves. For me, school has been quite helpful for example, because they are really strict about clearing their trays at lunchtime, it is that much easier to get them to help clear the table at home since it's already been drilled in and they sort of go into autopilot. It's also very cute that my oldest is now able to make/bring me a cup of tea and volunteers to massage my temples if I seem stressed. God children are so much easier than adults aren't they?

I think it’s good to look at what children are expected to do for themselves at school and nursery. I have had my kids screaming at me to wipe their bottoms because they don’t want to do it. Do they do that at school? No, therefore I won’t tolerate that behaviour. Likewise you got to teach them to tie their own shoes, cut up their on food, brush their own hair, wash themselves etc. You are not just doing it for you but also themselves in the long run. If you bring your child up to be a Stanley they run the risk of never having a healthy long term relationship. Same for a Beryl too.

How do we know Beryl is a patriarchal programming rather than human instinct?

If it was human instinct then all female in all societies at all times would have it. Which obviously isn’t the case.

kristina- I don’t agree completely about the definition of instinct and I don’t think it’s not the case that on balance this phenomena affects females more than males in all societies.