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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Peak GC Moment?

472 replies

CantUnderstandNoThing · 31/10/2018 07:07

I've namechanged for this because I'm a bit nervous of the vitriol I have seen directed at others with a differing opinion.

I know there's been a few threads with people sharing the moments they hit "peak trans", often citing individuals (Karen, Lily etc) or moments that led them to their GC beliefs.

I've realised I've hit peak GC, or perhaps peak t--f would be more appropriate, and I was wondering if anyone else has? For me, the peaking moment was the interview with India and Posie. I felt very uncomfortable with how offensive and discriminatory Posie's argument was. And really, it just came across as hateful. I realised I didn't want to be aligned with that.

The issues of violence towards women, safe spaces and the issues in women's sport are obviously very important and absolutely need discussion but the current angle of "women don't have penises" isn't helping that at all (imo obviously).

Anyone else feel the same? Or starting to feel the same?

OP posts:
DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 31/10/2018 11:08

When I think it through, I also can’t imagine a man deliberately going through the self id stuff they are proposing, to deliberately go into a toilet etc with the sole intention of attacking someone. It seems crazy. Men who attack women do it regardless.

The “self ID stuff” proposed is basically signing a form and wandering off, officially a woman, with no legal, medical or ethical gate-keeping.

Unlike you, I am absolutely sure that predatory men will take advantage.

The crime which convinced me of this involved an Australian man who preyed in young women. Listening to an account of the case, I was gibsmacked at how much work this evil man put into his pursuit of rape victims.

He created multiple personalities. He kept lengthy, meticulous records of those personalities, his conversations, information about the girls he was grooming. He travelled and met people with false personas. He spent thousands and thousands of dollars and hundreds and hundreds of hours hunting for victims. You can look up the murder of Carly Ryan.

That meticulous and obsessive behaviour is not unusual for many sexual predators. No-one is suggesting that transwomen are automatically sexual predators, because of course they’re not.

But if predatory men are legally allowed access to women’s and girl’s spaces with nothing more time-consuming than filling out a form, of course they will do it. I’m quite sure that after the Girl Guides debacle, there are paedophiles already trying on dresses in anticipation of the chance to be guide leaders.

And with all due respect to your relative, who is certainly a lovely person, I still have no wish to share a private, female space with her. I have a young relative who identifies as trans and I have no wish to share a female only space with her either.

Why does their sense of identity count more than my material reality?

MsMcWoodle · 31/10/2018 11:09

And here's this:

Peak GC Moment?
CantUnderstandNoThing · 31/10/2018 11:10

*I'm unsure what I think about the OP, but I am certain there are others on this thread who have never been GC in the slightest.

Bunbury would advise caution.*

Do you realise how offensive this is? If I have questions or concerns, I must have never been GC? Or not a feminist?

OP posts:
MrsCupCake91 · 31/10/2018 11:10

Did he do that because he was transgender? Or because he was a disturbed individual?

CantUnderstandNoThing · 31/10/2018 11:10

Not sure why I'm having bold issues - sorry again!

OP posts:
Ihaventgottimeforthis · 31/10/2018 11:11

MrsCupCake91 do you feel that your family member should have access to all the spaces and protections that a biological woman should?
For example, to join crisis groups where women have been abused by men, to use communal changing rooms where young girls go (yes they still exist), to be able to compete in female sports competitions? Even if other women say 'no actually I'd rather not share this space with someone who I consider to be male'?
I'm sure the vast majority of transgender people (just the same as the vast majority of non-trans people) are really nice & harmless and just want to get on with their lives without any fuss or drama.
But there are sex-segregated spaces for a reason - would you not draw a line at all?

WomanOfTime · 31/10/2018 11:11

Sorry for not being clearer, CantUnderstandNoThing - my 'hysteria' comment, like the others in that post, was quoting MrsCupCake91, not you.

MsMcWoodle · 31/10/2018 11:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigal · 31/10/2018 11:11

Do you realise how offensive this is? If I have questions or concerns, I must have never been GC? Or not a feminist?

Did you read the bit where I didn't include you in that?

SwearyG · 31/10/2018 11:12

That's not what Erish said Cant - she said she doesn't know about you but others on here are not GC.

Plenty of people from twitter post inflammatory statements on here and screenshot the responses to try and whip up excitement or anger against posters on here. It's wise to be cautious.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 31/10/2018 11:12

If I insisted that everyone call you a man for the rest of your life, made you use facilities for men and changed all your papers to say your were a man

If you could also arrange for the greater height, strength and salary that would be super

Ereshkigal · 31/10/2018 11:12

Thanks Sweary.

CantUnderstandNoThing · 31/10/2018 11:13

Yes, sorry. I think I've gotten a little upset. Apologies Erish!

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 31/10/2018 11:15

No worries OP.

NaturalBornWoman · 31/10/2018 11:15

There is a trans person in my family and she most definitely is a woman. She leads a normal life, has a regular job, no-one blinks an eye.

No. There is a difference between a woman and a transwoman. Just because the person is nice in your opinion, and has friends who 'wouldn't hear' of them using a different loo, that doesn't mean that women who do not want to share facilities are wrong and should have their valid feelings ignored. A person born male can not ever be a woman. No one can change sex. Some women will feel uncomfortable in certain places if your friend is there. For very good reasons. Especially now it's a free for all.

CantUnderstandNoThing · 31/10/2018 11:16

Gah! Sorry Eresh

OP posts:
LassWiADelicateAir · 31/10/2018 11:16

For me the "someone told someone who told someone who told me there might be a trans woman bra fitter somewhere in an unspecified M&S" thread leading to the "I'm boycotting M&S" calls.

The hypocrisy over concerns about genuine transsexuals and some of the comments on the recent Zuzanna Mroz thread and the illogical positions on that thread.

Magdalene Berns and her attacks on Blaire White- comes across as very one-sided
, no ability to listen to another viewpoint and just cheap point- scoring. Particularly so given White's own views on trans children, freedom of speech, lesbian rights , over- sensitive trans people.

The recent NZ thread.

Please don't @ me. It's not the done thing around here - as a regular you should know that's a bit rude. Thanks

Is it? When was that rule written and the memo issued? I must have missed it. It is a function of the site. I don't use it but there are lots of site functions I don't use.

It's not like this is a club, where everyone has been here for ages

Apparently it is.

That stupid little cunt Ben Shapiro doesn't think humans can change sex either

More tribalism. Ben Shapiro is a right wing commentator. Some of what he says I agree with- much I don't. But he is not stupid and calling him a "stupid little cunt" wants to make me distance myself from a person saying that.

There have been plenty of other examples but I'd need to search to find them.

WomanOfTime · 31/10/2018 11:16

MrsCupCake91

In your comment there you are labelling India as a man. She’s a woman. As is my relative. If I insisted that everyone call you a man for the rest of your life, made you use facilities for men and changed all your papers to say your were a man, I’m guessing it would upset you. Women are in no way inferior to men

India believes that India is a woman. My standpoint is that a woman is an adult human female and therefore India is not one. I'm sorry that India (or your relative, or anyone else) might find this upsetting, but it's factually true. It isn't saying that India is inferior, because men aren't inferior to women. There's nothing wrong with being a man. There's nothing wrong with being a man who likes feminine clothes and make-up. But a man cannot become a woman.

ABitCrapper · 31/10/2018 11:16

I think I understand the op.
I also felt some disquiet at Posie being "not nice". I think a lot of it is female socialisation though .
I also feel a lot of empathy for the gender dysphoric kids, and cannot think of an equal, empathetic solution to changing rooms etc other than providing a third space - which is "othering"
However, I strongly draw the line on not having to believe that TWAW. and I speak as someone with a TW close relative. And however much I love and trust them, I do not want to share a communal swimming changing room with them. Or sleeping accommodation.
However, you can't have a genitals check on entry to public loos and changingrooms. We need to work towards all these spaces being lockable secure cubicles really.
And I draw the line at women having to share accommodation / prisons / refuges / rape counseling groups with TW. And one should have the right to request personal care from a same SEX HCP.
But I also think that some pro women activists take things a little too far for my "being nice" female socialisation to be comfortable. And I don't like the singling out of eg that photo of Danielle Muscato when they are now starting to physically transition, or the restating that puberty blockers and hormone treatment will make people sexually stunted - some of that feels a bit echo chamber ish to me.
But that is my own opinion and I don't have to agree with everyone, and they don't have to agree with me.
It's ok to know your own mind OP. You don't have to agree with everyone :)

MrsCupCake91 · 31/10/2018 11:17

My relative is an adult human female. Everything in her life says so. Your argument is that because she doesn’t have the innards that no-one can see or can actually do anything harmful, then she needs to be segregated. Think about that for a moment. A person doesn’t have a particular organ in their body. Are you going to xray people? Because with my relative you would never know. Or are you going on looks? I was also told as a feminist that we should fight against judging women on their looks (which in my relative’s case is immaterial, as her height, build, facial features look totally female)

lunamoth581 · 31/10/2018 11:17

In my opinion, OP, you’re struggling with female socialization, like pps have said. You’ve said you found it uncomfortable that Posie Parker stated a fact that some transwomen find hurtful; and when PeachYoghurt, who is a lesbian, mockingly sung over Riley J Dennis, who believes that lesbians have to accept sex with penises or else they’re horrible bigots.

They weren’t being “kind” or “nice.” They were directly challenging what a male human being said. They weren’t respecting the male human being. They weren’t considering the male human beings feelings. All of which has been drilled into women’s heads, almost since the day we were born, as very bad things which we should never do. That’s female socialization, and it can be very difficult to shake.

But facts are facts - no matter whose feelings are hurt by them. Women don’t have penises. To suggest otherwise denies women the ability to define themselves and to name their oppression and oppressors. Lesbians aren’t attracted to people with penises or interested in sex with people with penises. To suggest otherwise is incredibly rapey, and denies lesbians their right to define themselves and their sexuality.

At the end of the day, though, facts are facts. And facts can’t be offensive no matter how much it hurts anyone’s feelings to acknowledge them.

MrsCupCake91 · 31/10/2018 11:18

Yes. Totally.

CantUnderstandNoThing · 31/10/2018 11:19

But that is my own opinion and I don't have to agree with everyone, and they don't have to agree with me.

I think I might get this cross stitched onto a pillow or something. Grin

OP posts:
ABitCrapper · 31/10/2018 11:22
Grin

My other motto is "you will not be everyone's cup of tea" - very helpful I find Wink

MsMcWoodle · 31/10/2018 11:22

MrsCupCake My relative is an adult human female
Fine if you want to share spaces with your relative. I don't. It's not respecting other people to force them to accept a biological man in their space.