Peak GC Moment?

[CantUnderstandNoThing]

I've namechanged for this because I'm a bit nervous of the vitriol I have seen directed at others with a differing opinion.

I know there's been a few threads with people sharing the moments they hit "peak trans", often citing individuals (Karen, Lily etc) or moments that led them to their GC beliefs.

I've realised I've hit peak GC, or perhaps peak t--f would be more appropriate, and I was wondering if anyone else has? For me, the peaking moment was the interview with India and Posie. I felt very uncomfortable with how offensive and discriminatory Posie's argument was. And really, it just came across as hateful. I realised I didn't want to be aligned with that.

The issues of violence towards women, safe spaces and the issues in women's sport are obviously very important and absolutely need discussion but the current angle of "women don't have penises" isn't helping that at all (imo obviously).

Anyone else feel the same? Or starting to feel the same?

I just want to say thank you to the OP for being brave enough to stand up and voice that opinion, in an environment where that view isn’t popular. Gave me a bit if courage!
I’ve been on MN for a while, but had always been scared of mentioning my unease with the rhetoric being used about trans people - and yes, I’m a feminist.
There is a trans person in my family and she most definitely is a woman. She leads a normal life, has a regular job, no-one blinks an eye. When she first transitioned I read as much as I could on the subject, because I knew nothing. MN was one of my first ports of calls. I’d seen a few threads previously, and read them out of curiousity. When the trans news came, I worried how I would feel and react. I was literally panicking.
I needn’t have bothered.
The nastiness and insinuation I read here doesn’t marry up with my family member in any way. She’s not a monster. She’s not deluded, mentally ill or confused. She’s not a threat. She doesn’t need to be separated into some sub group. She has loads of friends, and the thought that on a night out with her pals should would have to use a different toilet is both ridiculous, and heartbreaking. Her friends wouldn’t stand for it.
I think the reality of actually knowing a trans person closely is the best education, and I sense most on here only know the characature.
Like any other decent person I’m horrified by the Karen White story and other incidents that have taken place. As she is. But to me that’s more down to the fact that there are plain and simple bad people. They should have been in isolation. It had nothing to do with them being - or claiming to be - trans. The authorities messed up.Being trans didn’t make them bad.
When I think it through, I also can’t imagine a man deliberately going through the self id stuff they are proposing, to deliberately go into a toilet etc with the sole intention of attacking someone. It seems crazy. Men who attack women do it regardless.
The hysteria around this topic makes me feel very uneasy.
I’ve also seen arbitary lines drawn up on what makes a woman. Women don’t have penises - yet surgery can give trans people vaginas.
So then it changes to women have wombs.
What happens when science reaches a stage where trans people either grow a womb, or can have a transplant?
The line gets drawn again?
How does having or not having a womb even make someone a danger, a threat?
I saw Posie on This Morning. It exposed the reality sat next to India. Who looked and behaved the most threatening?
India’s a woman, as is my family member - who is a gorgeous person in so many ways, has been through a lot, and has never bothered anyone. And doesn’t deserve to be seen as inferior in any way.
I know this is unlikely to change anyone’s view, but I just wanted to support the opening comments.
Anyway, once again, well done OP for giving me the courage to post my view (under a name change to avoid the flak)

It would be great if we could sort this all by being nice .

If men who identity as female could be nice enough to not use women’s spaces , legal rights, awards and sports teams then everything would be fine.

Most women would be more than happy for them to campaign for all of these things for themselves , just like women did.

Why can’t they just be nice and kind and obliging, and not do and say these uncomfortable and offensive and discriminatory things ?

What aren’t more men reaching out to other men and telling them to be nice?

Op, why aren’t you reaching out to trans people and begging them to be nice ? Tell them how upset you are about their lack of Kindness please.

Thanks for posting the telegraph article arranfan

Op, why aren’t you reaching out to trans people and begging them to be nice ? Tell them how upset you are about their lack of Kindness please.

I'm not begging anyone to be nice. I'm just questioning how I feel. I do wish people would stop putting words in my mouth.

The root of the problem is that men aren't being nice. They need to stop all the rapes and violence and be nice.

Women, I find, are nice enough.

I'm being serious, btw. I keep telling my boys 'be nice'.

I personally couldn't have said what P9sie said to India's face (although I 100% agree with her) because I'm conditioned as a woman to be nice to people to the detriment of my own self interest.

And I don't want to have to have this ridiculous battle on my hands. I'm astounded it has come to this. Another struggle for women's rights. FFS.

Exactly. TRAs weaponise our female socialisation against us. Posie takes no crap.

arranfan thank you for sharing the article.
I appreciate women want to stand up to trans activism, yet for me, citing the left's willingness to blindly support PIE in the 70s is in no way comparable to the left's willingness to support transgender people and recognise TWAW in the present time.

PIE is a dangerous ideology, being transgender is not.

Spare Rib, the lesbian magazine of the time, did not support PIE.

Diva magazine, the current lesbian magazine, does support transgender women and recognises them as women.

Culturally, PIE and trans activism are worlds apart.

Brilliant post @MrsCupCake91 it is heartening to hear there are feminists who think like you do.

Like any other decent person I’m horrified by the Karen White story and other incidents that have taken place. As she is.

Your family member sounds likes some of the transsexual posters here: some of whom are active on Twitter and have been part of the panel at various WPUK meetings. Was it Debbie Hayton or Kristina Harrison or someone else (Google is letting me down)?

This doesn't make sense to me.

I don't really like the Christmas cards on Posie's website and don't think they're in very good taste. I do have one of her t-shirts, which I love.

I honestly can't imagine the leaps of logic it would take to get from 'I disagree with this one thing Posie did' to 'therefore the GC position is wrong, men can become women after all, womanhood is a feeling and not a biological reality.' Anyone who claims this can't actually have been GC in the first place.

Ditto for a position being automatically wrong because it was stated by Trump or the Daily Mail. It strikes me as incredibly illogical tribalism to believe that because a person you dislike said something, it must be untrue. It reminds me of the ideological-purity types on Twitter who think that if you retweet something it's a statement that you agree with everything the original writer has ever said and will ever say. Bizarre.

You see, that's where I differ. An ideology which insists that male-bodied convicted sex-offenders should be placed in women's prisons where - predictably - they go on to sexually assault vulnerable female inmates (Karen White) is dangerous. An ideology which insists that young teens feeling understandably confused and conflicted and even dysphoric about the changes in their bodies which accompany puberty should be placed on a medicalised pathway to sterility and genital mutilation at an age when we wouldn't let them get a tattoo - that is a dangerous ideology. There's no getting round that.

I agree with the points you made about tribalism and ideological purity, Woman. Well put.

Thank you 🌺

I saw Posie on This Morning. It exposed the reality sat next to India. Who looked and behaved the most threatening?

I've just rewatched that interview and can't see how either of them were 'threatening' in the slightest during it. No threats were made.

India’s a woman, as is my family member - who is a gorgeous person in so many ways, has been through a lot, and has never bothered anyone. And doesn’t deserve to be seen as inferior in any way.

Do you believe that men are inferior to women? If I see India as a man, how is that seeing India as inferior to me?

The hysteria around this topic...

Ah.
Yes, maybe my womb is wandering off again and that's why I'm having pesky disagreeable opinions instead of just being nice.

But you think Peachy wasn't nice enough to the male who thinks lesbians should get over their aversion to penis?

And was literally responding with the song to being called a misogynistic slur by Dennis? Is this really something to clutch your pearls about?

There is a trans person in my family and she most definitely is a woman

How? Seriously, how? What definition do you have of woman that allows someone who is born male to be a woman?

As for the rest of your post about the lines being drawn and moved as science moves on that's not what should happen. There is a simple definition of woman - adult human female. Muddying that line with post-op TW are women or anything like that is what leads us to the nonsense of the female penis.

As an aside, but an important one, surgery cannot give a man a vagina. A vagina isn't a place to put a penis. It's an organ, one that cannot be manmade. What TW end up with isn't a vagina. Using language this way is very offensive.

Women don’t have penises - yet surgery can give trans people vaginas.

If your view of a vagina is 'hole between the legs that can be penetrated', I'm struggling to see how you think you can claim to be a feminist.

A vagina is a complex organ that is an inextricable part of the female reproductive system as a whole. To reduce it to 'hole' is deeply misogynistic. A surgically created hole will have none of the functions of a vagina beyond being a place you could potentially put a penis. 'Hole for penis' is indeed how a lot of men see vaginas, but women should know better, especially those claiming to be feminists.

Surgery absolutely cannot give anyone a vagina. You get your vagina in your mother's womb or you don't get it at all.

Sorry, crosspost with SwearyG.

*The hysteria around this topic...

Ah.
Yes, maybe my womb is wandering off again and that's why I'm having pesky disagreeable opinions instead of just being nice.*

I just want to make it clear I never said anything about hysteria. And my issue wasn't about "being nice".

Pretending that men can be women makes your head hurt

I’ve stopped and I highly recommended it

It allows you to have a coherent position

My apologies for the bold fail there.

I also can’t imagine a man deliberately going through the self id stuff they are proposing, to deliberately go into a toilet etc with the sole intention of attacking someone. It seems crazy. Men who attack women do it regardless.
It will never happen. Except that it does all the time. Look at some of the It Never Happens threads on here.
Men who attack women will do it regardless - so why did we have sex segregated spaces in the first place?
To be honest, I think that this is in pretty poor taste when we have just had news of the Canadian trans abuser.
Also, after a week where we have had people hounded at their workplaces for GC views.
As for India and Posie. India struck me as a whining narcissist and Posie was admirably straightforward.

I'm unsure what I think about the OP, but I am certain there are others on this thread who have never been GC in the slightest.

Bunbury would advise caution.

I think you said it better Magic

In your comment there you are labelling India as a man. She’s a woman. As is my relative. If I insisted that everyone call you a man for the rest of your life, made you use facilities for men and changed all your papers to say your were a man, I’m guessing it would upset you. Women are in no way inferior to men