What is ‘cis privilege’?

[MissSusanSays]

I’ve seen quite a few of the posters wo come on to make the pro-self id argument rage about ‘cis privilege’

Could one of them actually explain what it is? Because I struggle to see how women, who are oppressed by their sex and forced into gender norms, abused, paid less, over looked for promotions, given shoddy maternity care, suffer post natal depression in silence, suffer miscarriages, fight through the shame and difficulty on infertility, endometriosis, breast cancer, rape, sexual assault, menopause, hysterectomy, groping, belittling etc are privileged.

If someone who believes in ‘cis privilege’ can point out to me what privileged women have then I’d really, really like to know.

Or is it just another way to shame women into not talking about the tragic and terrifying things that happen to them because of the way their bodies function?

Off the top of my head violent assaults, being spat at, mocked in the street, overlooked at job interviews, having their gender dysphoria dismissed as a mental illness, difficulty finding a partner willing to accept them, rejection from family members, painful surgery, lifelong medication.

Join the world.

Being overlooked at job interviews. How is this ever other than a personal feeling?

Violent assaults. Please understand that small children face violent assaults every day.

Being spat at. I've been spat at.

Having their gender dysphoria dismissed as a mental illness. There is no shame in having a mental illness.

difficulty finding a partner willing to accept them Try getting a partner post menopause and having been dumped for a younger woman.

rejection from family members, There have been women sent to 'homes' for being pregnant and facing the trauma of giving birth to a child and 'giving it up' i.e forced into signing away that child for adoption.

painful surgery I'm reminded of my brother who went through painful surgery as a child.

lifelong medication Like those with type one diabetes? Or other conditions they are actually born with.

I agree it is horribly misused but the thread was "what is cis privilege?" and I was replying to people dismissing it outright.

I agree it is really the absence of dysphoria that makes life easier, I wouldn't use it for everyone under the umbrella. I was only saying that I thought it was easier to be a man than a dysphoric man and in that sense it was real. I don't think it trumps male privilege and I don't think you can actually apply privilege status at an individual level anyway, I think they are population level measures.

I do think dismissing it outright simply feeds into someone who thinks they are a victim. It would be much healthier to acknowledge their problems and expect ours acknowledged in return, than to just dismiss them and be dismissed in return.

I do think dismissing it outright simply feeds into someone who thinks they are a victim. It would be much healthier to acknowledge their problems and expect ours acknowledged in return, than to just dismiss them and be dismissed in return.

Well said Paw.

"Yes; if a transwoman wants to talk about 'cis privilege', it should be in relation to men."
YES! That is it for me, it's WHO they should be compared to. So, for example, a passing transwoman may be treated just like a woman, but has the advantage that they are possibly stronger etc. Plus not able to experience some of the disadvantages that come with female biology. A passing transman may be advantaged compared to, say, a butch lesbian. The gender-non-conforming issue hits lots of folks, not just non-passing trans people. But the passing transman will be disadvantaged compared with men, because they will probably also have to deal with issues of their female biology, whether that be dealing with it, or dealing with having certain aspects of it removed surgically. But passing transmen do also manage to accrue advantages compared to females because they are seen as male (like anecdotes about transmen who rejoin their place of employment with their new male persona, get mistaken for the brother of previous employee, with comments about how much better they are than their sister!

I seem to be arguing that actually only people who ought to significantly argue for cis-privilege (other than the simple non-trans privilege meaning) are transmen, but significantly it seems to be mostly deployed by transwomen against females. I wonder why that is...................

I agree it is really the absence of dysphoria that makes life easier, I wouldn't use it for everyone under the umbrella. I was only saying that I thought it was easier to be a man than a dysphoric man and in that sense it was real.

This is just nonsense. It's easier to be a man without diabetes than a man who has diabetes. It's easier to be a woman without asthma than an asthmatic woman.

Nobody thinks dysphoria is not debilitating: of course it is. But it doesn't confer class-based social privilege when it is absent in a person. Many women suffer dysphoria throughout their lives without it being connected to the religious notion of a gender identity. Where's your special category for them?

I do think dismissing it outright simply feeds into someone who thinks they are a victim. It would be much healthier to acknowledge their problems and expect ours acknowledged in return, than to just dismiss them and be dismissed in return.

I am sorry, but a transwoman who complains about the cis-privilege of a woman (and this is how it almost always plays out) has by their very argument dismissed women and our problems.

However, if a rich, able bodied, white, "lesbian," male transistioned late in life, I would feel no shame in pulling him up on how well life had treated him and how he was appropriating groups with real problems for attention. I do know two and (away from twitter) the sympathy lies almost entirely with the families and not the TW themselves.

I can't understand the idea of privilege top trumps, I don't think it makes any more sense than illness top trumps (which is fortunately seen as a bit simplistic and crass). Anyone pulling that kind of nonsense should be pulled up.

Nobody thinks dysphoria is not debilitating: of course it is. But it doesn't confer class-based social privilege when it is absent in a person. Many women suffer dysphoria throughout their lives without it being connected to the religious notion of a gender identity. Where's your special category for them?

This ^

I didn't make up the term, if someone wanted to explain to me why diabetes or asthma put them at a disadvantage, then I'd listen. If they started complaining it put then at more disadvantage than anyone else ever, then I'd expect them to start listening and have a reality check.

It is easier to be a non diabetic than a diabetic, and if diabetic people were upset and campaigning about artificial sweeteners/ sugar tax, for example, and started saying "insulin privilege," to make a point, that would be ok by me. I have never used the term privilege in this way, just that there can be a basis behind the hysteria which you dismiss alongside the term.

Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness.

That doesn't make sense. If it's neither mental or physical illness then why would anyone treat it? If they don't have serious MH issues what on earth is the justification for giving this group additional rights which impinge on the rights of women?

It's pretty clear that a lot of men who identify as women do so as a lifestyle choice. If they don't suffer dysphoria, keep their penis and want PIV what else can it be?

And AGPs become aroused by presenting as a woman or doing stereotypically feminine things, like knitting. I can see nothing in that to justify women being asked to relinquish hard won women's rights and spaces. Quite the opposite. Involving unwilling strangers in your fetish is grotesque and abusive.

I'm talking about fantasies where they see themselves as sluts only fit to be treated as such. I'm not inventing any of this. This creepy wankfest misogyny is all over the internet. Men who use us as props, who sexualize us by dehumanising us are the last people who should have access to spaces where women are naked or otherwise vulnerable.

I very much distinguish transsexuals from the now very much larger group that includes fetishists and cross dressers. But they are still not women.

Whoever earlier said it’s like rachel dolezal complaining about ‘black privilege’ was bang on the money

Most women I know actually suffer enormously because of ‘gender identity’ and gender stereotypes. It is being made far worse by transgender ideology which reinforces stereotypes. Many girls go through difficult and painful times when they go through puberty, I know I found it incredibly distressing to suddenly be sexualised by grown men at aged 12 and to try and feel comfortable in a changing body that got unwanted and completely inappropriate attention from men. I was called a boy regularly by people in our small town because I had short hair, wore ‘boys clothes’ and liked working the farm with my Dad. It was very confusing.

The utter misogyny of someone coming here and claiming females don’t suffer with gender identity issues. The patriarchy uses gender stereotypes as a tool to beat us with in almost every facet of our lives.

I didn't make up the term, if someone wanted to explain to me why diabetes or asthma put them at a disadvantage, then I'd listen.

Then listen. Simple as that. How can you not go through life without knowing someone who doesn't have asthma or diabetes?

I do think dismissing it outright simply feeds into someone who thinks they are a victim. It would be much healthier to acknowledge their problems and expect ours acknowledged in return, than to just dismiss them and be dismissed in return.

Of course, but when it's framed in terms of "you're ciswomen, we're transwomen, and all of us are women", that discussion is a non-starter for me.

Nobody thinks dysphoria is not debilitating: of course it is. But it doesn't confer class-based social privilege when it is absent in a person. Many women suffer dysphoria throughout their lives without it being connected to the religious notion of a gender identity. Where's your special category for them?

I don't actually believe in gender identity or make up these categories. If there was a political debate with tensions running high, about plastic surgery on the NHS for people with body (not gender) dysphoria, and someone invented a linguistic short cut to express than those of us comfortable in our own skin didn't understand the emotional toll - that would be the same in my eyes.

All I have said is that dismissing it outright isn't something I think is helpful, encouraging people to use the term cis privilege correctly (comparing men to TW, not women to TW) would be a healthier discussion.

If it's neither mental or physical illness then why would anyone treat it?

I think (someone correct me if I'm way off base) that there are conditions which are not 'illnesses' as such - eg autism.

'Cis' privilege seems to be based on the assumption that women are universally accepted as women, no questions asked, no abuse for it etc.

However it misses the glaringly obvious fact that women are actually oppressed on this basis. Aside from huge issues such as rape, domestic violence, the pay gap, poor maternity care/maternity impacting life expectancy in some places, FGM etc there are so many other issues that Trans women in particular do not seem to even register.

Cat-calling in the street, anything from 'cheer up love' because you don't have a grin plastered on your face to 'Oi slag' and worse.

Subtle and unsubtle questioning as to whether you have/want children in job interviews.

The recent incontinence mesh issue, causing crippling pain for thousands of women, but went below the radar for years', because it's a women's issue.

Tampon tax, period poverty, austerity impacting women the most, the rise in sexual assaults, extreme porn having a negative impact on teen girls, the rise in anal collapse and injury in young women due to this extreme porn, the absolutely dire rape conviction rates, the shocking rise in young women 'identifying as male'.

All that and more is related to female biology and the oppression of women and girls. TRA's and most Trans Women do not seem to register it, nor give a shit if they do. Some privilege huh?

I think (someone correct me if I'm way off base) that there are conditions which are not 'illnesses' as such - eg autism.

That depends who you talk to. My autistic family do not think they have an ‘illness’ and hate that it’s called a disorder, and that ‘neuro typical’ is the default position so they must be ‘disordered’.

You might have a point about 'cis privilege' being an issue wrt to GNC males in relation to males who conform to the gender norms of our society without a thought.

But I have never seen this phrase used in that context. I have seen it used frequently in order to shame women speaking about their biology and the structural disadvantages they deal with that are based in that biology.

So what I see is a term that is being used to reinforce patriarchal oppression on women and keep them firmly in their gender box by removing their ability to speak about their own oppression because they have been convinced that to do so is a privilege.

Essentially 'Cis privilege' is a jargon term for the very old fashioned "Shut up, love, your oppression is irrelevant."

Whenever I have seen cis privilege used it has always been transwomen weaponising it against women and it has always come down to “everybody believes you are a woman”

Well yeah they do, because I am, but I’d struggle to see the privilege there. It basically means “you have something I want and it’s not fair” and that’s a very childish idea of privilege

I am sorry, but a transwoman who complains about the cis-privilege of a woman (and this is how it almost always plays out) has by their very argument dismissed women and our problems.

I know and agree, all I am saying is that acknowledging the cis privilege of a woman does exist, but only confers an advantage compared to trans men, is a healthier conversation. I would prefer to keep language accurate and be corrective than dismissive and mocking.

I would hope to answer such a TW like: "Yes, I do have cis privilege and I can't therefore understand fully how hard it is for dysphoric women or transmen, however, having grown up with male privilege means there are things you can't understand either. You cannot compare cis and male privilege in this way and it is wrong to suggest you can.

Of course, but when it's framed in terms of "you're ciswomen, we're transwomen, and all of us are women", that discussion is a non-starter for me.

I would never start that discussion either, it's just a goady statement trying to start a fight. I have never said a single thing to agree with that approach.

*Whenever I have seen cis privilege used it has always been transwomen weaponising it against women and it has always come down to “everybody believes you are a woman”

Well yeah they do, because I am, but I’d struggle to see the privilege there. It basically means “you have something I want and it’s not fair” and that’s a very childish idea of privilege*

I agree, perhaps I haven't been in this topic long enough to have seen it regularly used in any context. I thought this was going to be more a conceptual or linguistic discussion than an emotive one. I'm not on twitter and don't know many aggressive TRAs. In fact, all the people I do know transitioning, or transitioning their children, are more like vulnerable people caught up in the suicide fear than the people linked to on here. I see the whole movement has made their lives harder, so I suppose I am coming from a different place. I don't feel any desire to go out and find an aggressive, inarticulate, TRA to argue with though - even if I'd get on better with you lot after a few battle scars!!

So what I see is a term that is being used to reinforce patriarchal oppression on women and keep them firmly in their gender box by removing their ability to speak about their own oppression because they have been convinced that to do so is a privilege.

Excellently put floral

Pawsome, with respect, discussions about language have been a feature here for a long time, and they are not intellectual discussions for the sake of it, they happen because language matters as it frames our thoughts and shapes attitudes and behaviour.

As much as it might be more appropriate to use the phrase 'cis privilege' in the context of men and feminine presenting trans people, that is not how the term has currency, and when women are telling you that is being used as a tool to get them to shut up about their issues, it's really tone deaf of you to ignore that.

I would never start that discussion either, it's just a goady statement trying to start a fight. I have never said a single thing to agree with that approach.
I don't disagree with anything you said, I'm just pointing out that that's how it's used today (I didn't mean you specifically, sorry if it came across that way). It's no longer a conceptual or linguistic discussion.