Passing privilege

[DamnCommandments]

Just filled in the GRA consultation and it got me thinking... Trans people face uncertainty every time they need to use single-sex faculties like toilets and changing rooms, right? 'What if I'm challenged? What do I say?' But no one is going to carry their birth certificate around with them. And even if they do, and they have had it changed to match their acquired gender, once they've been challenged, it's too late - they already feel shite and have had to justify their existence.

Presumably if they have the privilege of passing, this stuff happens less. Fewer challenges, less time feeling like shite. So the people who have most to gain from the GRA are the people who already have least trouble - people who pass in their prefered gender but just want a little extra confidence. (People who don't pass will still spend their time being challenged, not having their birth certificate and feeling shite. No GRC is going to make a 6'4" transwoman with a visible Adam's apple blend in.)

And predatory imposters who want to gain access to women's spaces. They'll gain too, of course.

Maybe not a birth certificate, but surely most people carry a driver's license with them when they're out?

Maybe not a birth certificate, but surely most people carry a driver's license with them when they're out?

Do they ? I don't. In the UK you don't need to carry it even when you are driving.

And not everyone has a driving licence or a passport.

But no one is going to carry their birth certificate around with them. And even if they do, and they have had it changed to match their acquired gender, once they've been challenged, it's too late - they already feel shite and have had to justify their existence

There are already stories appearing about women who challenged obvious male -bodied people in women’s spaces and ended up getting in trouble. A side effect of the GRA will be that those who don’t come near to passing will be challenged less often, whichbis one of the reasons it will become easier for predatory men to take advantage.

You can already change the name on your driving licence anyway.

And I'm amazed anyone makes a challenge. We're so heavily socialised not to.

Women aren't all that likely to challenge an obviously male person in a sex-segregated space (even if they haven't been 'educated' that challenging is hate). Most of us will just quietly stop using the space.

'Passing privilege' is inaccurate as the real privilege being exerted will be exerted by non-passing males over everyone else to pretend not to notice or fade quietly away.

People like Danielle Muscato are not people suffering from lack of passing privilege, they're men thoroughly enjoying controlling, intimidating and invading women. They're abusers taking the piss.

Under self ID any bloke walking into a women's facility is self declaring just by walking in there. Regardless of how they look.

Women have two options. Quietly cede the space and we return to the Victorian age where women didn't go to public spaces, and accepted they were an inferior species. Or get bloody difficult, and start demanding a safer space, making one hell of a fuss and making service providers' lives a misery. It's worked for the TRAs.

The OP has made me realise that I, an actual womany woman, now face uncertainty every time I need to use single-sex faculties like toilets and changing rooms. Because of the current acceptance of self-id I’m now always aware of the possibility of there being a male in what is meant to be or was previously a female-only space.

It has happened once and I didn’t say anything. That was over a year ago, and if it were to happen now I hope I’d speak out.

I'd be cautious about confronting anyone who looked potentially dangerous, but I've kinda promised myself to challenge anyone visibly male in a woman only space.

More power to all our elbows

I do object to the misuse of 'privilege' to mean 'anyone having a nicer time' or 'being good at something' though

Privilege is about structural power relations. It's about who gets the biggest slice of pie / who gets to annex whose toilets / whose version of what happened is believed etc

The fact that we're not talking about how upsetting it is to be a non-passing ftm in the men's tells you everything you need to know about who has privilege in this scenario.

Lurking around online, it seems that men who identify as women often have a totally unrealistic view of how well they pass.

Adult men and women look very different from each other. It's expressed in every detail of our bodies, from hips to jaws. Women seem to be better able to present as men, even if they're rather Hobbity. In contrast, even when men are very slight and short just their hands and feet are often enough to destroy the illusion.

Yeh I don't always 'pass' as a woman even though I've always been one, and yes I have had looks and comments in toilets. Don't care, I don't need any 'validation' of who I am.

I think the opposite. The transwomen I've seen most vocally supporting self ID are those who don't pass at all and many of whom appear to have no intention of physically transitioning. I wonder how many of them would even meet the criteria for a GRC as it currently stands. They have the most to gain because this would grant them a legal position that gives them power over women who might object to their presence.

The transwomen I've seen who don't support self ID tend to be transexuals who pass well.

The transwomen I've seen who don't support self ID tend to be transexuals who pass well.

Understandable. Those who have been through the process will think its unfair the next generation won't have to.

The transwomen who most vocally support Self ID are the ones who haven't a hope of getting a GRC. Non dysphoric AGP men who like to present as women are not who the GRA was aimed at.

I've never yet come across a trans woman who passes, although I am aware that I probably have a heightened sense of awareness of these things for various good reasons. What I have seen is women simply leaving the space when a trans woman enters. There's no fuss, no shouting, no one says anything, they just walk away. Probably safest given the violent rhetoric prominent TRAs espouse.

I agree Melanippe. No need to challenge the person. I will however find the management and explain I can't share a mixed sex space so could they point out the facilities I can use please.

I get challenged from time to time, it's not pleasant but I'd rather someone said something than just left. It's normally "are you in the right place" or "this is the ladies" and I'm normally very neutral in my response, something like "yes" or "I know", turn to face the person and wait for it to click that I'm female.
Genuine question: is this the right approach? Any suggestions?

I probably lean towards being against self-ID, mainly because it feels wrong for me as a man to contest something which so many women feel strongly against and which won't affect me. I also think that the situation need a careful analysis as could be difficult to reverse once granted.

However, it still seems a bit unfair in some ways to condemn the majority for the actions of a deviant minority. It's not unlike saying Black people can't be in our spaces because they're 'over represented at every stage of the criminal justice system' as previously evidenced in government statistics.

I don't see a way right now that we can cater for both sides unfortunately - i.e. shield women from harm whilst catering for those genuinely suffering from dysmorphia who don't want to change with the rugby team or use a 'trans' facility which inadvertently outs them.

I disagree with the OP, I too think that those who have most to gain are not transexuals who pass reasonably well, but those men who don't pass and have no intention of passing - the very fact that they present with a beard and a suit, is a deliberate show of power: You must pretend that you think I'm a woman, even though I am clearly and demonstrably a man and I am enjoying how abject your submission is when you go along with my taking the piss out of you.

The problem of course, is that if you come out of the shower and there's someone sitting there with his penis hanging out, you won't know if he's a brave inspirational transwoman, or a dirty old perv who has come in to flash.

No one has yet explained how it's possible for women to tell the difference. When the question is raised, I'm given to understand that I shouldn't be asking it. The implication seems to be that it just doesn't matter that women and girls will be put in this position and we're making an awful fuss for no reason. It's just a penis, get over it. Or alternatively suck it , bigot.

The problem of course, is that when you get off the bus and and a asks you for the time, you won't know if he's about to steal your watch or just wants to know how soon his bus will be arriving.

This is what I can't get my head around - how it's different - and it's really obfuscating my view on the matter.

Could we not nullify this issue by doing away with any concept of communal nudity? I think the concept of having to communally shower at school, was a greater incursion into my boundaries than having to share fully private individual facilities with anyone else.

Just have fully private unisex facilities.

That's not a bad idea, Havalina. I'm sure there are plenty of people who are uncomfortable being naked around strangers of either sex.

@Scott it is different because is objectively . With someone who believes they are entitled to a different sex space, you are dealing with someone who expects you to indulge their delusion at a cost to women/girls.

In most countries you need an identity card.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area

Identity cards state sex.

If somene passes it makes no difference either way whether they have a GRC, because if nobody can tell that they're not the sex the space was intended for why would anyone question them? This is and always has been about forcing open those spaces to those who are very clearly and visibly male.

No one has yet explained how it's possible for women to tell the difference.

And it doesn't matter, because that moment of sheer panic that a woman or girl feels upon seeing a penis in a space where no penises should be will happen regardless of any certificate issued to the penis owner, and women and girls should not be having to feel that fear in our sex segregated spaces.

Individuals who're dysphoric generally don't want randoms looking at their genitalia, so you have to ask yourself who laws that state that a male individual should be allowed to have their penis visible in a women's space are intended to benefit. The answer is illuminating.