Passing privilege

[DamnCommandments]

Just filled in the GRA consultation and it got me thinking... Trans people face uncertainty every time they need to use single-sex faculties like toilets and changing rooms, right? 'What if I'm challenged? What do I say?' But no one is going to carry their birth certificate around with them. And even if they do, and they have had it changed to match their acquired gender, once they've been challenged, it's too late - they already feel shite and have had to justify their existence.

Presumably if they have the privilege of passing, this stuff happens less. Fewer challenges, less time feeling like shite. So the people who have most to gain from the GRA are the people who already have least trouble - people who pass in their prefered gender but just want a little extra confidence. (People who don't pass will still spend their time being challenged, not having their birth certificate and feeling shite. No GRC is going to make a 6'4" transwoman with a visible Adam's apple blend in.)

And predatory imposters who want to gain access to women's spaces. They'll gain too, of course.

Scott, I'm glad the penny has finally dropped. I get your concern for early transitioning TS, I share that. The problem is, you can't pick and choose which transpeople you're defending on this issue, because the transactivists have overreached into women's rights and there's no going back if/when self-ID happens. You're standing shoulder-to-shoulder with people like the bandwidth man and the extreme porn advocate Jane Fae. Are you ok with that? What about the Karen Whites who aren't in prison? The Labour women's officer who is telling people to "suck her big lady cock"?

We're not stopping you posting Scott, we're pointing out that you have muscled into our discussion to tell us how you think we should conduct ourselves with respect to a situation that you don't know very much about.

You have a right to your opinion, but you have given us no reason to respect it.

It's really interesting to see in action the complete lack of understanding of the implications of physical sexual differences that someone like Scott manifests.

Using the analogy of 'black people commit more crime, so....' The problem with this analogy is that it is perfectly possible to imagine a different geohistorical situation that might have led to it being white people who commit more crime. Because one 'race' committing more crime than another is always something that is down to social circumstances. And indeed, in some for example rural communities, it could well actually be the case that whites are committing more crime.

Whereas men in any social environment are always significantly bigger and stronger than women, are always massively more liable to sexually attack women than women are to attack them, and are capable of impregnating women against their will. It doesn't matter what social situation or historical circumstances are involved. Which is why in all civilised societies, the need for separate spaces for women and girls in certain circumstances is recognised.

It just keeps coming back to the total lack of awareness so many males seem to have of the physical, real-world actuality of being female, doesn't it?

There's nothing to stop you posting, Jnr, as long as you observe talk guidelines.

However it perhaps hasn't crossed your entitled mind that Feminism Chat endures a constant trickle of men like you telling us what we're doing wrong. We tend to employ them (and you) to illustrate the points we're making for the huge number of lurkers we know are here. So you become a sort of teaching aid.

If you're OK with that and don't mind being as welcome as a fart in a lift, then fill your boots.

Jaw continually dropping in this thread. How is it possible that men can be so totally confident in pompously pontificating on things they clearly don't understand? Mansplaining is a really heady drug for these dudes.

Apartheid? Women should accept trans feminine people into their spaces because more women than men are comfortable with feminine presentation? 'I have a right to be here'?

Mate, how do you manage to function with that scant amount of self-awareness?!

As always, I am reminded that I have a solid list of articulate, funny and intelligent MNers that I want to be just like when I grow up

Funny how men feel they are feminist allies and then don't like it when they are roundly told that being an ally doesn't mean marching in and telling us all what we should do. Sit down, shut up and listen - you might learn something.

Ah Mr Reasonable is back in town. I'll text Lundy and let him know.

I suspect most of us as 'young' people - the 18-24 age group as it's often polled - would have been far 'cooler' about bodily privacy and everything else. Sexism, how ingrained it is and how disadvantaged women are by it is something that doesn't sink into the average woman until after they've passed out of the university environment and often not until they hit the reality of pregnancy, child bearing, child raising, dealing with a work place, rack up their endless experiences of harassment, sexual assault, violent and abusive men via themselves, their friends, their families, their kids' friends -

I think I was probably mid thirties and post my first pregnancy before it really started to occur properly to me. I've heard many women here share the same experience.

So a lot of these 'cool kids' with XX chromosomes currently being polled may very well not hold onto these views into later life, as their experience racks up. And right now, the experience of all women is racking up very fast, very high, on a daily basis, and so is their sharing of information.

The idea is to make a challenge impossible. Walking into a women’s only space is an act of self iding as a woman. So if you approach a man in a women’s restroom to challenge them that would be transphobic by virtue of the implicit self id of yh bring in there in the first place.

Apologies if I've come across a bit bullish, I'm just a direct person. That said, the term 'mansplaining' is to me a very reductive term which I often see used to shut down debate. Any time a man gives an opinion the 'mansplaining' accusation can be thrown and it's tiresome.

I've not said anywhere that I believe I'm right or implied I'm educating you all/explaining how it is. It's a bit like calling an assertive woman 'bossy' IMO - lazy stereotyping.

I've no issue with trans people of either sex being in my changing room, but I just know they probably don't want to be there and many men won't feel the same as me.

I've no issue with trans people of either sex being in my changing room, but I just know they probably don't want to be there and many men won't feel the same as me

That's a problem right enough, but it's not our problem. Men and transwomen need to sort this out amongst yourselves, not come barging into sex-segregated spaces needed by women for our safety, privacy, dignity, representation and ability to engage in public life.

I actually had this conversation with DP last night. He asked me to explain radical feminism, so I did, and his response was "So what are men supposed to be? What does feminism want men to do?"

I said, "In answer to the second question, stop killing two women a week in the UK would be a jolly good start. In answer to the first, feminism has nothing at all to say about what men are supposed to be. You'll have to figure that one out yourselves. Good luck starting a new mens movement based on humble self assessment and personal growth. I shall look forward to the results of your extensive labour in a couple of decades. In the meantime, do remember to knock the whole violence towards women thing firmly on the head, eh?"

You've got a fair point, but ultimately it is down to the establishment in question to decide who they let into their changing rooms. A leisure centre, for example, isn't a 'public' place in the same way the street is.

Floral,

Whilst fully acknowledging that men commit the large majority of violence, I think there's a bit of an unrealistic expectation that us men can police the actions of every individual. There's over 31 million of us in this country and it only takes two criminals/mentally ill individuals to fulfil the 'two a week' statistic.

Yes, we can try and encourage boys to be more respectful etc, but will this even impact violent drunks from broken homes, etc.

I remember a previous discussion on here about rape culture. RAINN (possibly the biggest authority on the matter with over 1000 service providers) made it very clear that their research showed the problem to be down to a small, deviant number of individuals and said it didn't find it helpful to blame it on a 'culture'. In fact, they said it actually took culpability away from the specific minority that were responsible.

People often seem to use the 'two a week' as a gotcha against men, but statistically it's 0.000006 of men that murder.

Scott, you rather miss the point. It's a 'sort your own shit out, fellas' thing, it's not a 'Sit there while I expend lots of energy trying to work out a way of helping you convince other men to welcome males who don't conform to gender norms into your spaces.'

You guys created this problem. The only reason this is an issue is because men as a class think they cannot accept GNC males into their spaces. Either due to homophobia, macho posing, psychopathic tendencies... I don't care. Every single dudebro who comes here arguing for male bodied feminine presenting individuals to come into women's spaces is saying "I'm an unpleasant person who doesn't want that kind of person near me because I'm either a homophobe or an insecure bully. I'm going to cover that up by telling women they need to accommodate the man I am uncomfortable with, even though it may well put them at risk, because I'm too much of a wet rag to deal with my prejudices"

It's absolutely insufferable.

I will inform my two dead friends that you think they are being used as a gotcha against men. Oh no I won't. They're dead.

Its not just violence, Scott. Its that women use women's bathrooms for more than peeing. For example, its the place we go to miscarry. that happens to over 600 women a day in the UK alone.
Its where we go to clean up the blood after we unexpectedly flood, to cry, or to get away from men who are bothering us.

Scott, you rather miss the point. It's a 'sort your own shit out, fellas' thing.

So, you're saying that if 30,999,998 of us 'sort our shit out' but two reprobate let us down, then we all have to hang our heads in shame.

I can't agree with you on that.

The only reason this is an issue is because men as a class think they cannot accept GNC males into their spaces.

I don't think this Is this issue at all. I think the issue is being driven by TRAs who absolutely refuse to accept anything but access to women's facilities, and that the average bloke on the street knows and cares even less about it than the average non-GC woman.

Oh hi Scott! Of course I remember you from the thread with all the RAINN references. You used to be a bit of a regular on threads about rape at one time didn't you?

Beyond

Re Scott 's 'deviant minority/criminal' etc who he says are responsible for those two women murdered a week and apparently the vast majority of rapes/sexual assaults - if you had at any point listened to women, you would know most women were raped/assaulted by someone known to them, ie a partner/family member, not a passing psychopath. The x2 a week is (if memory serves) women killed by current or ex partners, not serial killers out to decimate the female population.
Men can only improve this situation by confronting each other about unacceptable behaviour and modelling better behaviour. Boys will learn from their fathers that it is ok to stand up to other men, instead of learning to keep their heads down and let the women take the fall. It is not women's job to tell men not to rape or kill.

It's not two reprobates though, it's two a week

And that's just for murder, then we have DV in general (3 suicides a week iirc), rape - nearly 10,000 a week for E&W... I'm not going to go on actually, as that's depressing enough.

If that's all two reprobates, they're busy men.

Apologies if I've come across a bit bullish, I'm just a direct person.

I don't think anyone gives a shit about you being direct. I certainly don't. To me, you're being the boor at a party who's had one too many and can't take a hint. But y'know. That's just me. NAWALT and all that.

I was a lurker back then so I highly doubt it. But I've been lurking for ages and I've seen many of the epic argument threads/have a good idea of who is who on here...

Not everybody who disagrees with you is the same person lol...