Passing privilege

[DamnCommandments]

Just filled in the GRA consultation and it got me thinking... Trans people face uncertainty every time they need to use single-sex faculties like toilets and changing rooms, right? 'What if I'm challenged? What do I say?' But no one is going to carry their birth certificate around with them. And even if they do, and they have had it changed to match their acquired gender, once they've been challenged, it's too late - they already feel shite and have had to justify their existence.

Presumably if they have the privilege of passing, this stuff happens less. Fewer challenges, less time feeling like shite. So the people who have most to gain from the GRA are the people who already have least trouble - people who pass in their prefered gender but just want a little extra confidence. (People who don't pass will still spend their time being challenged, not having their birth certificate and feeling shite. No GRC is going to make a 6'4" transwoman with a visible Adam's apple blend in.)

And predatory imposters who want to gain access to women's spaces. They'll gain too, of course.

That's not a rational response to the discussion, Scott. I note that you haven't answered my questions. You don't have to, but I'm beginning to think that it's all about superficial wokeness for you as you don't want to discuss any of the real, practical concerns related to this issue. You seem to want to "help" a particular group of people with zero consideration for women's safety. That's your prerogative, but I hope you don't think it makes you morally superior, because that would be silly.

Would you really help if you thought the likely result would be your death? Serious injury?

You really think a transwoman getting dressed next to you will likely result in your death?

I'd never try and force it upon women (it's your ultimate choice), but I think the younger generation are much more prepared to accept transpeople and hopefully we'll see a future where this is possible.

As I said before, there were people once upon a time who would've been enraged about 'blacks' sharing their changing rooms.

It's very noticeable isn't it that these men constantly banging on at women to be generous towards those who harm and exploit us are never to be found asking their fellow men to treat women with a little more generosity.

The point I wanted to make was that you have a limit.

Now, I will tr to explain why my limit is where it is.

I do not think being in a changing room with a male body would cause my death, but it would knock my mental health . Panic attacks, anxiety, to the extent that I would be excluded from such places without a suitable escort. I would have to give up going to the gym, I would only be able to shop online. Is that the society you want? Women excluded from public life?

Is it just me?

mental health problems are a very common result of sexual assault . Ptsd is very common result of rape. And about 20 to 25% of women have suffered rape or other serious sexual assault. In such cases, episodes can be triggered by men in inappropriate places, in not being in control of who sees you naked. The feeling of vulnerab8ility.

The respect that men give women by giving us safe spaces helps build back trust between men and women. The safe spaces, which are enforced currently by society norms , are less about preventing rape ( which more often is done by someone who has gained your trust , who says they are no threat ) than about showing respect and giv8ng women opportunity

Most rapes are carried out by men who has said they are safe good people we can trust. , think about it,

Dear Scott

No is a complete sentence, not the beginning of a negotiation.

Men who cannot understand this should really fuck right off to the far side of fuck but they never do.

This is what we call a QED.

Lang

When women and children are raped and murdered it's nearly always a man to blame, Jnr. Men commit 98% of sex offences and women's wariness is entirely rational.

Men who identify as women are at least as likely to be sex offenders as other men. More of them than other men, going by the proportion of them in prison for such offences. Transvestism is the most common paraphilia among rapists.

On top of that, Self ID would allow any man access to spaces where women are naked or otherwise vulnerable. It's a considerable risk to take and it seems at least 83% of people oppose the idea.

Your arguments are tired and repetitive. No, recognizing male pattern violence is not equivalent to racism. No, ageism doesn't make your arguments any more persuasive. No, we won't be bullied into being kind and womanly... You're not doing well here.

Midgebabe The safe spaces, which are enforced currently by society norms , are less about preventing rape ( which more often is done by someone who has gained your trust , who says they are no threat ) than about showing respect and giv8ng women opportunity
That's true, but legitimising the presence of men in frocks in women's spaces would create opportunities for rapists, I have no doubt about that. What I find curious is the dismissive notion that these things would be unlikely to happen. So why the concern for transwomen having to use men's rooms?

Indeed, changing the law could well be an enabler, giving more opportunity for sexual abuse. I was just focusing on answering the question and focussing on the unassailable rather than the probable

recognising male pattern violence is not equivalent to racism

Perfectly put

Also, the idea that the entitled violence of men (as a class) can be compared to the responses of groups of bame people to systemic disadvantage is racist in itself.

Perhaps I'm just too naive, but I'd have thought that there would be considerable incentive for transfolk to not take the piss if granted this privilege - else it might be reversed.

I genuinely think that most true transsexuals just want to behave and get on with their lives as if they were natal women, but seemingly this doesn't really matter in the argument. People who want to stroll in with a big beard etc are surely a different matter, and surely they wouldn't even be meeting the criteria of 'committing to living as a woman' which is necessary to get a GRC in the first place?

It's very noticeable isn't it that these men constantly banging on at women to be generous towards those who harm and exploit us are never to be found asking their fellow men to treat women with a little more generosity.

How do you know this? Do you monitor their actions/conversations?

How do you know this? Do you monitor their actions/conversations?

Ha if only we lived in a world where women had to go out of their way to monitor men's conversations in order to get a continuous running commentary on male opinions

Exactly! Talluhah

How do you know this? Do you monitor their actions/conversations?

Mostly, they intrude in our conversations - rather like you're doing here, dear - so it's not as though monitoring is required. It's fucking unavoidable.

Full surgical, transwomen to date have been on the whole respectful and understanding, On the whole I think that most women have no gripe with these people.

TRAs and Mra’s who support self id and no legal sex differentiation couldn’t give two hoots. They will throw transwomen and women under a bus for a bit of fun. I think you are correct, You are a bit naive., or just lucky in your life experiences. If the mud of transphobia for challenging that man in a beard can be made to stick, it is a real set back for women and girls, and I think bad for most men also.

Remember we have people who are women only on some days taking women only prizes, we have people with no intention of living their entire lives as a women, with full male bodies, taking part in women’s sport. We have people telling us that it is transphobic to dicusss periods.

And if you sense some negativity on the board, I will admit, I am torn between thinking you are a man trying tonunderstand or you are an MRA waiting to strike. There have been a lot of them, especially at weekends.

Well said, Midgebabe. The old-school early transitioning TS who just want a quiet life are being thrown under the bus by the "I'm keeping my ladydick and you can suck it" AGP lobby and their clueless cheerleaders.

The deliberately obtuse gain what from these threads?

Scott what did you hope to gain from coming here and telling us women that you don't think trans women are men, so shouldn't be in your spaces?
I can't understand why that would be, unless you agree that men as a group are a risk to women? And if men are a risk to women, why should we accept anatomically unaltered men into women's spaces?
I'm guessing you can't even conceive of the awkwardness of sitting in a toilet stall with a visibly Male person in the stall next to you, trying to change your pad/tampon.
Or lying in a hospital bed, with a trans woman next to you, while you try to get to sleep, wondering if they're safe to be unconscious near.
Or going for your smear test, to find the nurse administering it is a trans woman, as they ratchet the speculum open.
FFS.

The onus is on men to alter their behaviour around non-conforming men, not on women to make their spaces unisex.

What I find curious is the dismissive notion that these things would be unlikely to happen. So why the concern for transwomen having to use men's rooms?

This.

So why the concern for transwomen having to use men's rooms?

Could it be that this is all really about the need to save men and transwomen from the embarrassment of having to acknowledge a fundamental breakdown in the collective performance of masculinity? Or something?

Male opinions welcome, especially if they are insightful and not racist

@ScottCheggJnr in order to see why women feel uncomfortable with sharing single sex spaces with self id trans women you don’t need to imagine that the trans women are black, or that they are alien, you simply need to think of them as what they are, men.

Do you understand why, once aged 8 or over, male children can no longer get changed in the women’s changing rooms? Do you understand why men aren’t currently allowed into ladies loos and changing rooms? Why they aren’t allowed into women’s refuges? Why we might ask that it’s not a man carrying out a smear exam? You must do, because you already seem to understand that trans women won’t want to get changed in the same room as the football team.

So as Stonewall have given us a figure of 500,000 as the likely number of men who would like to self id as women and use our facilities (which based on current population is roughly 1 in 65 men) how unlikely do you actually think it is that we will come face to face ( or face to penis) with a man in a space we expect to be for people without a penis?

Do you understand that if this goes ahead that the only difference to a man in the football team getting changed in the men’s or women’s changing room is just his decision that he wants to?

Sweet jumping Jesus I am so fed up of woke dudebros carefully mansplaining why it's important that women bow down to gender feelz and show understanding and compassion.

If you weren't born, raised and socialised as female then you have NO IDEA what it feels like to be constantly on your guard when you're alone - when outside, when travelling, when on the bus, when walking to the sarnie shop to get your lunch, when sitting in the library...pick a situation. Comments, stares, invasion of space, "accidental" brushes through to cornering and full on groping.

And now, on one of the few places online where women can actually talk about this shit, a man has taken it upon himself to explain that he really doesn't think that it's that big of a deal and that the younger generation are leading the way in showing their understanding.

How many times were you sexually assaulted by the time you were 21? No more. You don't get to tell me that my EXPERIENCE of male violence, entitlement and minimising is invalid.

Go on, fuck off. Just. Fuck. Off.

Thank you ResistanceIsNecessary. Well said. There's another FWR thread just started about another fucking idiot dude telling women off. He's even provided a picture.

Mostly, they intrude in our conversations - rather like you're doing here, dear

It's a public forum. I've as much right to be here as you.

Midgebabe, I guess I'm probably thinking of what you'd call 'old school transexuals'. I've googled some of the names mentioned one here and they're certainly not what I had in mind! I do feel sorry however for those who genuinely just want to keep their heads down and live 'as women'. They seem a far cry from that dude with a beard that talks about 'widening the bandwidth of what it is to be a woman' etc.

It's a public forum. I've as much right to be here as you.

No, it's a public forum in which you have the ability to post, but courtesy dictates that you shouldn't.

That statement is pretty revealing. Upon being told in a feminist space that women would prefer you didn't post, your response is to say that you have a right to be here. You're equating 'ability to post' with 'welcome your presence'.