So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

[YuhBasic]

Because I’m still not clear.

Sorry if this has been answered before 😕

As foxyliz26 said, there is a difference between "old-style" transexuals and the "new-style" transgenderists.

I think we all have sympathy with anyone who genuinely and completely wants to change sex. What seems to have popped out of nowhere is this gender business, and particularly the idea that if someone can choose gender, then it follows that they can choose which sex they are and afford themselves the "privileges" of that sex, such as the right to use the women's toilets or changing rooms or women's prison.

But if gender is a choice, then surely someone has the choice to change back, possibly midway through a stint in the toilets or changing session or in the bunk bed above a woman in prison. And that is not a right that anybody should have.

transwoman, because they are, if anything, discriminated against to a greater extent than other women.

I would like to see official evidence for this. Not some blog or made-up statistics.

Otherwise, the statement I quote is a lie. Like the suicide statistics that TRAs and allies like to haul out.

transwomen aren't women. Men can't become women. Ever.

No more than cats can become dogs.

Dadjoke As a transsexual person with XY chromosomes but presents in a feminine manner can you tell me how I am a woman - as per the dictionary / scientific definition?

I identify WITH women but not as a woman, does "that" make me a woman?

Because I occasionally wear makeup, or stereotypically feminine clothes (ie leggings and a top - I hate dresses), does that make me a woman?

Because I have gender dysphoria and want to alter my body / secondary sex characteristics for my own mental well being, does that make me a woman?

I'm trying to get clarification as to what you're trying to describe a woman as.... because I'm not entirely sure.

Wrong. There are some who have a really shit time. I understand that and I sympathise. But how dare you say they have a worse time than women. Statistically they are less likely to be killed. Less likely to be raped. Less likely to be overlooked for promotion.

Than transwomen? This isn't true based on data I've seen. What are your sources? Transwomen are more likely to suffer violence and sexual violence, and are subject to very specific abuse because they are transgender. They suffer gender based and trans-based oppression, though not oppression based on their male bodies.

Women and girls suffer from sexism every. Singke. Day. It has been proven that we are less likely to get pain relief. We have bodies that are big taken seriously - we get dismissed more. Girls are far more likely to be aborted, to the extent that some countries will now not allow the sex to be given at ultrasound. Girls suffer from FGM. We have unequal pay and unequal positions. Women who speak less in meetings than men are seen as overbearing.

This is all true. I am not sure what the relevance of it is to transwomen's rights.

I am trying to avoid using "woman" in a contest which definitively excludes transwoman because that's what the whole mumsnet GC / TRA debate devolves into every single time.

So you, a man, feel that it’s appropriate to tell all the women on here, what a woman is? Seriously? Why don’t you care that women find it offensive that someone with a penis is calling themselves a woman? You’re not walking a middle line. You’re telling us to put the feelings of men before the feelings of women. It doesn’t matter how you word it, that’s what you’re doing.

can you cite UK-specific data for that claim, Dad?

Than transwomen? This isn't true based on data I've seen. What are your sources? Transwomen are more likely to suffer violence and sexual violence, and are subject to very specific abuse because they are transgender. They suffer gender based and trans-based oppression, though not oppression based on their male bodies.

Here we go with the "transwomen are the most oppressed people on the planet" bullshit. TRAs and allies never get tired of peddling lies to promote their agenda.

@Hamster00 I am not going to tell you whether you are a woman (gender) or not - that's for you to say.

That's the whole point - your experience defines your gender. I would say you are not a woman (sex). I hope that is not offensive.

I think you are a GC feminist, so you are pretty unlikely to say you are a women, because you define woman as "adult human female."

Hamster00 I have an awful lot of respect for you, as I imagine it can be rather unnerving for a true transsexual to speak up.

TRAs and allies never get tired of peddling lies to promote their agenda

Yup! No matter how fluffy the words are, the mask always slips.

woman is not a gender, Dad

Transwomen are more likely to suffer violence and sexual violence, and are subject to very specific abuse because they are transgender. They suffer gender based and trans-based oppression

Leaving aside whether there are figures to back that up, it doesn’t really have anything to do with women. Gay men and gender nonconforming men also suffer violence.

I for one am truly grateful that a man has appeared to tell me what a woman is.

My 60 years of living with all that being born XX entails clearly don't qualify me as much as him. Or any of the men who believe they're women, obviously.

I for one am truly grateful that a man has appeared to tell me what a woman is.

Stephen identifies as a man, Vicky.

It's Stephen Whittle, is it? I did not realise that.

I thought vicky was referring to dad

Sorry, vicky, wrong thread. I’m not sure what Dad identifies as.

dad is SW?

Oh god that completely confused me perf

PositivelyPERF No it's not unnerving. I've had enough - I'm angry. I will stand alongside any/every single woman on this board to protect your rights against this nonsense.

I don't care how I'm seen, or what I'm called, but this crazy ideological onslaught by TRAs and their allies who clearly have no idea what's at stake (and are determined to perpetuate delusions and deny basic biology to further that ideology) has to stop.

Sex based rights, services and spaces HAVE to be preserved.

And Dadjoke I think you are a GC feminist, so you are pretty unlikely to say you are a women, because you define woman as "adult human female."

That's the nicest compliment I've had all day. I'm learning, and I have some fantastic teachers! Yes, a woman IS defined as an "adult human female". You can't deny biology - end of.

Thank you for your input on this Hamster00. Your posts have been great. I’ve always thought there was great potential for trans women and women to be allies like this. It’s a shame that the TRAs have ruined it.

That's the nicest compliment I've had all day.

I have my suspicions it wasn’t meant as a compliment. 😉😁

I’m just struggling with the logic.

Women suffer violence therefore people who suffer more violence are also women?

Are all football fans female?

TRAs appear to want all the rights everyone already has plus additional rights that directly infringe the rights of women. We are called transphobic for wanting to examine and challenge these demands.

As for the success of Self-ID in other countries, given that attacks on women and children by transwomen will now be recorded as crimes committed by women, there's no way to accurately assess the impact. Plus there's all the low grade incidents that will decrease women's use of previously sex segregated spaces.

Under Self-ID, a man who claims to identify as a woman can sit in the public area of a women's changing room and spend ages applying lotion to his body or just gazing around and the women there won't be able to do anything. "He kept staring at my daughter" or "I could see his penis" will not get the man banned or even removed. No crime will have been committed and no one will be able to check whether he is genuinely transgender or just a pervy bloke. Any woman who reports such behaviour is likely to be condemned as a bigot and may even find herself in trouble
Self-ID eradicates women only spaces. The result of such incidents will be that women stop using such facilities.