Women's Hour Tomorrow!

[MsBeaujangles]

The consultation is going to be discussed tomorrow on Women's Hour. They are asking for our views!

So the Irish expert didn't know anything about the situation in Ireland despite chairing meetings and the barrister wasn't that good on the law. Megha Mohan added nothing useful but was pro trans, same for Rabbi Janner really. Bex Stinson as you would expect. 5 against 2, not very balanced. Nic and Debbie did very well against numbers.

I'm reading now on twitter.

Who is Emma Martin who says they invented the term gender incongruence?

how the heck did WH justify having 4 pro GRA reform voices and only 2 GC ones?

so weird

I think Nic did remarkably well, actually - she was given very little time and had to hold her own amongst a sea of people disagreeing with her. She was calm and polite. The Irish woman was remarkably ill-informed about her own country's legislation, so she was a waste of space, and the BBC woman who was presumably there as a "neutral" voice was quite obviously partisan. There are a dozen things we wish Nic could have said - sport would have been a good example to bring up, given the weekend's recent events - but she essentially had to distil her argument into a short space of time.

The rabbi woman was completely pointless - she added nothing whatsoever to the debate. I don't see why they had to interview so many people - six, was it? One trans woman (though Bex had a clearly male voice), three trans allies and two gender-critical people, one of whom was a transwoman. Talk about loading the dice.

That was one of the most biased programmes I have heard on the BBC. I though Nic did brilliantly and while Debbie Hayton did raise the massive safeguarding issue it was mostly ignored. But the rest was terrible. I know its a waste of time but I am going to complain to the BBC

Safeguarding and safety are obviously important aspects of this whole thing, but how about we talk about our own comfort? Even if we could know for sure someone wasn’t a predator, I do not feel comfortable getting changed next to males other than my husband! Ffs why is that such an outrageous thing to say? My daughter absolutely would not be comfortable. Why must be centre trans feelings in every damn thing but ours are dismissed as hateful? God this is pissing me off.

It's just a false equivalent. You aren't talking about race, you are doing about maleness. There's lots of evidence to show men are more violent than women and this is the reason we have our sex based spaces. Any attempted comparisons to race, religion, disability, sexuality is a false equivalent. It would only be remotely similar if you tried to argue you only wished to exclude a black transwoman from a safe space and welcomed anyone else. It's a strawman, red herring argument.

Sorry I'm posting slowly so missed that others are making the point about consent!

Non binary is just a label for "I'm not like other girls/boys". It's a snotty way of setting oneself as better than their peers, and the parents embracing it are doing the same thing to their own peers "I'm a special parent to a super special child, I'm more understanding than other parents", while they reinforce sexist stereotypes and basically do-down all the unspecials who of course all happily conform to stereotypes.

I know a few kids who have identified as non binary or genderfluid in the past year, theit all part of a friends group where every single one has a special title and they are all very sneering towards other kids who aren't preoccupied with this identity crap.

SarahJConnor Serious question- do men campaigning for prostate cancer awareness get told they need I think about cervical cancer suffers too? No of course they don't. Why is it women's work to sort out all the problems males have? Males want to change sex and fear male violence - women sort it out. No. I don't want to. I want to take care of women.

Actually, one of my many rages against R4 Today programme was a few months back: a woman from a prostrate cancer trust whining about all the attention breast cancer charities get and how it's not fair and how those people raising money for breast cancer (let's take a wild guess that these are, in the majority, women) should switch their fundraising to prostrate cancer fundraising instead. Absolutely nothing from her about getting men to get involved in raising money for a condition that affects only them!

Thank you WarmWishes I wish I was as eloquent as you!

Yes, I fear for the average listener the message would be 'No problem here, move on'. We need to be able to discuss what identifying as a woman really means because I need to check I'm doing it right and the actual real impact it is already having. These are the key issues which need to broken down in clear sound bites that are easy to digest. I do think that Media training is key (I say this as someone who is a trained broadcast journalist). Taking difficult concepts and breaking them down to the basics is what captures people.

Saying that, a big thank you to Nic and Debbie. You were up against it and you did a sterling job in the circumstances. I am sorry you were cut off as you were. (And I hope that beyond stupid lawyer is pulled up by her employer).

Personally, I am annoyed the programme gave the last word to a lawyer. Anyone listening, who knew fuck all about the argument might listen in and not be liking the idea of self id at all, then hear the lawyer and think, 'Storm in a teacup. Lawyer says it will not have any effect, so it will not have any effect.'

Discrimination barrister, Naomi Cunningham on twitter puts it best with the words:

Saying changing the GRA doesn't change the EqA is like saying "It's ok everyone, we're keeping the door locked just as it always was" while making massive changes to your criteria for handing out keys.

Fear is their new buzzword

Silly women being AFRAID and FEARFUL all the time

god honestly I hear so much FEAR

whyisthecakealwaysgone

I wish! Have re-read that and squirmed at the grammatical horrors.

It's incredibly frustrating listening to these programmes.

I honestly can't see why they don't have some kind of buzzer. Right you go, you've got one minute.

Then the buzzer goes off. Okay now you go and reply. And you've got one minute.

And so on.

The whole thing could be wrapped up in, what, 10 minutes?

Acting like women are irrational to be afraid of men is one the worst injustices - especially when they keep going on about #MeToo.

Fear is their new buzzword

In the 19C it was "hysteria". Nothing changes.

Really bloody angry that any discussion of Karen White was shut down (in fact I am pretty sure the BBC has barely touched this important story). I can't believe there are any legal constraints remaining on reporting this case post verdict (I don't think there are media restraints pending sentence, but I am not a criminal lawyer)

If they had to have a lawyer, they should have had one who knows what they're talking about, such as Julian Norman.

I think we have become conditioned to accept that anyone putting across the GC argument is always in the defensive position. There has, to my knowledge, never been a programme where this is accepted as a starting point (apart, maybe, from some of Julia HB's talk radio slots) and all the ensuing issues examined from there.

Nic Williams does a great job of playing that position. But it's fucking exhausting and ultimately nearly impossible to actually gain ground when all airtime is given to refuting ridiculous claims and dismantling strawmen.

(And yet we have. And are. Keep pushing.)

I can't believe that was so biased - well actually yes I can believe it as it was the BBC. But it was SO biased - in terms of time and in terms of interruptions. JG interrupted Nic so often that I was outraged - it's so not fair. Well done Nic for keeping trying, and getting some good points in the time you were allowed to speak. Debbie was a good voice too.

The choice of people on the show was really odd. The gender believers didn't seem to know anything about the topic and we're unable to answer any questions, just swerved them in favour of meaningless jibbering.

Is Jane Fae is lying low? Usually Fae would be all over this sort of opportunity. Likewise Shon Faye or Paris Lees.

Getting the feeling that the closer we get to the consultation end the less we are seeing of trans males, like they've gone into hiding instead it's women being wheeled out (and harrop) to defend them. Useful idiots to hide the male agenda, and if it all fails useful scapegoats to throw under a bus.

Anyone still listening to BBC radio 4 it has just had a long intro of showgirls burlesque dancers introduce themselves - sure one person sounded male.

Anyone else find it ironic that the time is given to this but you can't really express any gender critical views on the bbc?

There's no other type of contract where it would be considered A-OK for one party to fundamentally change the terms of it without consent from the other. Why should marriage be any different?

It's quite barbaric and cruel to suggest that someone should remain in a marriage where one person has fundamentally undermined the basis of the contract isn't it?

If they had to have a lawyer, they should have had one who knows what they're talking about, such as Julian Norman.

Yup. The lawyer they had is quoted on Stonewall’s website.

That’s Stonewall who campaigned (and as far as I know are still calling for) the removal of the sex exemptions she is claiming (inaccurately) will make self-ID all ok for women.

Ok so the bbc4 are playing a show about strip tease music - and a woman now talking about her butt and spanking and her strip tease routine...

An obviously male voice was speaking about how he won't do a routine to "I'm a barbie girl in a barbie world"

Only saying this is maybe how you get to speak as a woman without being cut off.... you get to talk about wearing high heels and entertaining others with your body and yep guess what you will get radio time... and Lots of it.

If you are concerned about women in sport - children and safeguarding then just forget it - there will not be radio time for you.