Page 11 | Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/10/2018 16:07

yes, I don't understand why cal wants to plunge us into a world of 'are you trans enough to go to ladies prison?'

it's just so pointless

there's a really easy way to decide who goes to the men's estate and who goes to the womens

and yes, of course vulnerable prisoners should be protected. but not by infringing on the human rights of other prisoners.

RiverTam · 12/10/2018 16:09

You don't sacrifice ALL vulnerable women because some men are vulnerable.

Women's prison isn't the vulnerable men's wing of a male prison.

YES. This, with bells on.

Bonions · 12/10/2018 16:11

caligula But for the purposes of the law, there has to be some hard and fast rules don't there?

In both your Karen and Isla situations, one solution that would preserve the dignity, privacy and safety of everyone involved would be to have third spaces. I can't think of any other way to achieve this. And I appreciate there being concerns about 70 year old Isla being incarcerated with White but then couldn't whatever provisions people think could go in place to protect women from Karen White in prison be applied to Isla in the third space? And if that's not OK for Isla because it's not safe etc, then how could it be safe for women? And if it's not OK for Isla on any other basis, I'd be interested to hear what they'd be because I'm sure I've missed out reasons for why it may or may not work!

Sorry, I'm really aware I'm rambling but I'm trying to unpick it all.

CaligulaBlushed · 12/10/2018 16:16

I'm not pro-self-ID without some burden of proof BTW. There's a trans woman I know, elderly now and transitioned years ago, who I was talking to about this and she said she favours a two tier system for GRCs. So a "provisional" GRC if you like, that only affords you partial acceptance as your "preferred" gender, and a full GRC when whatever authorities have been satisfied it's suitable both for you and your community.

What wrong with that? Trans women are women to me. I know that some trans women are women to some GC feminists. The law should reflect the best we can do to all live comfortably with each other. I know from speaking to my trans woman friend that neither side would be happy with this outcome, but neither side would lose big either. If we could have self-ID with the checks and balances where needed (like in the prison service) then I think that could work, but those checks aren't there right now. So they have to happen when you apply for your GRC.

Datum, Isla is a woman. It is so obviously not right to put her in the men's prison AT ALL that it barely even needs justifying.

ThePrincipal · 12/10/2018 16:16

We have unpicked it. Time and time again. Most people get it, just that some insist on tangling themselves into knots again with words and muddled thinking.

YeTalkShiteHen · 12/10/2018 16:17

CaligulaBlushed that is not what you’ve been saying all along. It’s not even close.

Checks are exactly what is needed! AND a 3rd space.

CaligulaBlushed · 12/10/2018 16:20

that is not what you’ve been saying all along

I think it is Karen White doesn't have a GRC and so the prison service are sooooo responsible for their decision to put him in the women's prison. Self-ID would be fine if those checks were reliable, even for people who DID have a GRC, but they're not. So I think there needs to be some sort of review process to get a full GRC.

noeffingidea · 12/10/2018 16:20

But the answer isn't at the extremes, is it
But we have to take extremes into account, because women and children suffer if we don't. This case is just another example.
This policy is unfit for purpose, there are already too many examples of it going wrong. It isn't a case of Karen White being risk assessed wrongly, it's a case of the policy being wrong in the first place. Not only is it wrong, they knew it was open to abuse before it was even brought in, it's on record.

Binglebong · 12/10/2018 16:20

This I don't think is right. This debate polarises people just like all big debates do (Brexit, anyone?) But the answer isn't at the extremes is it. The answer is never going to be at the extremes. It isn't "tough cookies, you think trans women are women so that means you think Karen White should be in a women's prison come hell or high water", just like it isn't, "tough cookies, you think trans women are men so that means you have to send 70 year old Isla who transitioned 45 years ago (including full surgical reassignment) to a men's prison for losing control of her car and hitting a pedestrian".*

Calligula I think we all started wanting compromise. The problem is that the compromise is only coming from one side. First they wanted to use transwoman, no more. Than they wanted woman, they'd leave female alone. Now they want female. Some are even saying they should be called cis!

It used to be that we had an unofficial agreement of pretence. Now police are called for misgendering. Any compromise we give is jumped upon and the next thing demanded. Because of all the demands, and that nothing is ever enough, we are being forced to take a hard line. We can no longer do a case by case basis because of the way it is exploited.

We have been nice for too long and this is our reward.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 12/10/2018 16:21

So a "provisional" GRC if you like, that only affords you partial acceptance as your "preferred" gender, and a full GRC when whatever authorities have been satisfied it's suitable both for you and your community.

Who gets to decide that a male transperson will never sexually assault a women or girl. Who gets to decide that a girl will never feel uncomfortable undressing alongside a male transperson.

What criteria or checks are they going to use?

Bonions · 12/10/2018 16:22

Sorry twisted just seen you posted a link. Thanks for that!

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/10/2018 16:22

single sex spaces are not extreme

good lord

RiverTam · 12/10/2018 16:23

Karen White could have a GRC and still have a penis and would still and always be a man, so even with a GRC shouldn't be in a women's prison.

And how do you propose policing this?

NO.

Deal with the body dysmorphia in those that actually have it, as the mental health condition it is (like anorexia).

YeTalkShiteHen · 12/10/2018 16:24

I think it is

It isn’t. At all.

Karen White doesn't have a GRC and so the prison service are sooooo responsible for their decision to put him in the women's prison. Self-ID would be fine if those checks were reliable, even for people who DID have a GRC, but they're not. So I think there needs to be some sort of review process to get a full GRC

Again, absolutely not what you’ve been saying all along. By your own arguments, someone with a penis, not convicted of rape, identifying as a woman has a right to be in a women’s prison.

You just described Karen White before this latest conviction.

So, in fact, neither I nor anyone else on this thread needed to paint you as a “some idiot”. It didn’t need doing.

YeTalkShiteHen · 12/10/2018 16:24

Woke not some

TwistedStitch · 12/10/2018 16:24

Caligula a GRC doesn't suddenly mean a woman won't feel unsafe or uncomfortable by having to share intimate spaces with that person though. What is wrong with a third space? Why does it have to be women's spaces- I can think of no reason other than validation.

ThePrincipal · 12/10/2018 16:24

It’s called death by a thousand cuts BingleBong

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/10/2018 16:25

I think the point is Cal, if there are transwomen who you see as women, then that is absolutely fine

it doesn't mean you get to give away the rights of other women to privacy, dignity and safety though

i am quite clear that transwomen are men and I don't want a man administering my smear test, taking my space on an all women's shortlist or competing against me in a rugby match

CaligulaBlushed · 12/10/2018 16:25

What criteria or checks are they going to use?

It's complicated isn't it. But the alternative is to ask people who they would rather have suffer the consequences. It isn't about men and women. For the true humanitarian it really is Sophie's choice you're asking people to make, and a lot of people are calling on feminism to make sure women choose to throw the trans woman to the wolves.

YeTalkShiteHen · 12/10/2018 16:25

Also, why aren’t trans people demanding safe spaces? Prisons, toilets, changing rooms etc.

Instead of taking women’s? Not men’s, it’s never men having to compromise/sacrifice/be trodden on.

Because it’s easy.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 12/10/2018 16:25

a full GRC when whatever authorities have been satisfied it's suitable both for you and your community.

And where are the women in this?

You're talking about a man, negotiating with what will be mostly other men, to agree when it's suitable for that man to have unfettered access to women. You don't see the women as having any right to say no, you see their consent as irrelevant, you see it as absolutely right that they should be compelled to 'include' male bodied people whatever the effect on them, and to object is 'transphobic'.

This is precisely why no male born person, no matter what their stage of transition, should be in women's spaces.

CaligulaBlushed · 12/10/2018 16:26

By your own arguments, someone with a penis, not convicted of rape, identifying as a woman has a right to be in a women’s prison

Some trans women have penises. And?

YeTalkShiteHen · 12/10/2018 16:27

For the true humanitarian it really is Sophie's choice you're asking people to make, and a lot of people are calling on feminism to make sure women choose to throw the trans woman to the wolves.

And folk like you are wittering on endlessly to make sure it’s women being thrown to the wolves. Because that’s ok right? It’s ok for women to be raped, abused, attacked and intimidated.

Because like it or not, that’s what you’re saying. And it’s fucking sickening.

CaligulaBlushed · 12/10/2018 16:28

I love being called an idiot.

CaligulaBlushed · 12/10/2018 16:29

It’s ok for women to be raped, abused, attacked and intimidated.

Twisty twisty twisty twist....