Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

[Freespeecher]

Rickeyyy!!!

twitter.com/rickygervais/status/1050707771837026304?s=20

But a trans woman who doesn't pay her tv licence should be locked in with the men?

Male people don't tend to go to prison for not paying their TV licence. That's women - 3/4 of all tv license convictions. I very much doubt any vulnerable MTF would be sent to prison for that. As pp have said a third space solution needs to be found.

Caligula i do hope you will take the time to read the posts. That is almost more important than you replying. We have a lot of points, so take your time.

Caligula

You're saying that people are twisting what you say because when you say transwomen you mean a woman and when we say it, we mean a man.

By all means keep reiterating it in every comment. But calling it twisting what you're saying is really tedious. It derails the thread and makes the whole issue torturous to discuss.

So when we say we don't want women to be locked up with men. You're saying oh I agree. (Because transwomen aren't men. To you.)

In order to progress the conversation, perhaps you can specify what makes, in your opinion, a genuine transwoman.

Caligula
Which prison do you think transmen should be sent to?

If prisons put transwomen in with women, then this would violate the human rights of some women, e.g. Muslims, to practice their religion.

Mixed sex prisons are institutionally racist

I really appreciate Caligula posting here because it's helping me to unpick some of the difficulties with balancing everyone's rights. I hope you post more.

Caligula, would you mind answering the question about pregnancy please?

I’d also be interested to know where you think transmen should be housed.

That sounded sarky rather than genuine, but it was meant genuinely!

No, I like it when those with a diverse range of views post too Bonions

Of course that doesn’t mean they don’t get challenged....

Bonions

It's vital to have one's own argument open to scrutiny.

And this particular issue polarises opinion. Although less now than it used to. (Because people are seeing how loopholes are being exploited.)

There is still divided opinion as to whether or not you can categorise transwomen in terms of authenticity as women.

(Or just in terms of access, whilst acknowledging that they are still biologically male).

I, personally, think it's very useful to drill down into why some people believe certain criteria makes a difference.

I'm guessing that Cal thinks that transwomen are smol and delicate flowers that look like Blaire White.

When in the actual real world you now have males barely on HT, if at all, thinking their entitled to female spaces because they reckon they are cute and totally 'pass' (internet strangers lied told them so)

E.g - www.google.com.au/amp/s/hornet.com/stories/trans-woman-las-vegas/amp/

SRS means fuck all now when you have self diagnosed transwomen rushing to get it done as soon as they can. Timelines of transitioning are getting shorter and shorter. If they have the money, the surgeons will take it.

*they're

Katie Charm makes a point of getting kicked out of as many restrooms as possible. Always videoed crying afterwards.

Datun - Oh I know. Have you seen any of their dancing you tube vids?

Stonewall says Karen White is a woman because Karen White says so. Proposed legislation will say that Karen White is a woman because Karen White says so. Multiple organisations and institutions - the Guides, YHA, etc etc - say that Karen White is a woman because Karen White says so.

You can't pick and choose, Caligula. Karen White is self-ID and therefore Karen White is a woman.

That's the ideology. That's the legislative proposal. That's the current overwhelming institutional response. Karen White is a woman.

So tough cookies, my friend. You reap what you sow. And you sowed Karen White. Embrace her or admit you were wrong and become a right wing fundamentalist Christian feminist like the rest of FWR.

TinyRick

Indeed yes. They were also banging on about bitcoin formerly.

Can anyone find a link about White continuing to transition/claim to be a transwoman (because they're one and the same thing)? I can see reporting about how the judge said White was pretending to be a transwoman to be even more predatory but I can't see anything anywhere about White continuing to transition/still claim to be trans.

If White isn't still claiming to be trans then fair enough, but if they are still claiming to be, then that instantly makes them so, doesn't it?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-leeds-45825838

This states they are transitioning. The DM article about the sentencing described them presenting as a woman (clothes etc) at sentencing.

Sorry I haven't stuck around to flesh out what I'm saying but it's hard when you're the only one on a thread. But Langcleg,

So tough cookies, my friend. You reap what you sow. And you sowed Karen White. Embrace her or admit you were wrong and become a right wing fundamentalist Christian feminist like the rest of FWR.

This I don't think is right. This debate polarises people just like all big debates do (Brexit, anyone?) But the answer isn't at the extremes is it. The answer is never going to be at the extremes. It isn't "tough cookies, you think trans women are women so that means you think Karen White should be in a women's prison come hell or high water", just like it isn't, "tough cookies, you think trans women are men so that means you have to send 70 year old Isla who transitioned 45 years ago (including full surgical reassignment) to a men's prison for losing control of her car and hitting a pedestrian".

Why would you want to push people to one extreme or the other? You're not the only ones doing it, the TRAs on Twitter do it too, and neither side is right. It can't be either or, it simply can't be, because if it is someone will always lose. And they will lose BIG. The answer HAS to be some degree of subjectivity, surely? Forcing people to polarise just means asking people to pick who they would prefer to throw under a bus doesn't it?

Most people don't want to throw anybody under a bus. It's playing their emotions and their allegiances to tell them that they have to choose.

Multiple organisations and institutions - the Guides, YHA, etc etc - say that Karen White is a woman because Karen White says so.

GG would go further and say that parents would have no right to know about birth sex (for want of a better expression sorry my brain is fried today).

So for anyone still in doubt, THIS is why I object to self ID. Because people with agendas like Karen White, David Challenor, the other rapist from Wakefield prison can access women and girls in our most private spaces without a single damn obstacle in their way. It has been shown that it can and will and indeed has been abused already.

So, bring up a third space? I’m right behind you.

Tighten up the legislation to stop misogynistic men abusing it to get to victims? I’ll listen.

Until then, fuck right off.

Really interesting website about detention of prisoners.

www.apt.ch/detention-focus/

As a matter of principle, women should be separated from men, minors from adults, and untried detainees from convicted detainees.

We fail on the convicted and unconvicted but pretty clear about sexes not being mixed.

It later says:

Other separation criteria can be justified to protect detainees in situations of particular vulnerability due to their age, health condition, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or gender identity.

To me that reads as though female's should be separate from men but those groups may then be sub divided if necessary. It does NOT say people should be out in the gender they identify.

Caligula

I don't understand why you think it's so awful for a 70-year-old transwoman to go to a male prison? There is a vulnerable prisoner unit. Many men are vulnerable in prison. Gay men, disabled men, older men, men with learning difficulties.

You don't sacrifice ALL vulnerable women because some men are vulnerable.

And it's not necessary.

Women's prison isn't the vulnerable men's wing of a male prison.

Women are human beings in their own rights, you know. Female anatomy, gynaecological issues, menstruation, pregnancy, past sexist and sexual abuse and assault. This is what characterises female prisoners.

This is what characterises female people.

They are a unique category, in their own damn right. Stop trying to dilute that.

Caligula - Coming at it from that point of view, maybe a good compromise might be to allow a very few men to legally transition, subject to medical diagnosis of dysphoria with a system of checks and balances? So the law as it currently stands? Surely the hypothetical Isla would have been able to obtain a GRC under current legislation?

Now I personally do not agree that there should be any exceptions to sex segregation when it comes to prisons, but you must admit that the existence of GRCs at all is already a HUGE compromise on this issue. The trouble is the boundaries of what constitutes extremism or compromise are pushed back and back until apparently Self-ID isn't recognised as extremism anymore.

If the XX chromosome is present, it's female
If it's XY, it's male.

No amount of surgery or dressing-up is going to change that.

The creature calling itself Karen White is a MAN. A MAN who raped.