"over 70% of unprovoked street attacks were men being violent to other men."

[golondrina]

I commented on a tweet saying that men too are afraid of walking alone at night because of violence from other men. I said that it may be true that some men fear violent attack from other men, most don't. That men sometimes are afraid walking alone but that women are usually afraid of walking alone at night and that it was an important difference.

He's come back saying "over 70% of unprovoked street attacks were men being violent to other men" I want to reply with something specific, help me?

But the problem is still men's violence. Men are the problem.

He seems to be saying that women aren't the overwhelming victims of male violence, but I can't believe that's true?

These men who are being attacked very rarely fear they'll be dragged into a bush and raped, or bundled into a car, or actually killed.

Someone on here posted this a few days ago wrt to murder - the stats were from Karen Ingala-Smith, don't know if you'll find it relevant but it's interesting

He seems to be saying that women aren't the overwhelming victims of male violence, but I can't believe that's true?

He's talking about a very particular type of violence though. I don't know if it's true but I could see male-male violence in terms of unprovoked street attacks actually being more common but, even if that were true:

• "Unprovoked" provides a very nice defense for men who fight
• There are other forms of violence done towards women which are much more common and insidious which men just don't have to fear when out and about (e.g. cat calls, being followed, being groped)
• The problem is still men and their violence

It's probably true. If all non-thuggish men were as afraid of male street violence as women, then probably fewer would be out on the streets and the numbers would be more similar.

Two wrongs doesn't make a right.
If you were to look at the proportions of sexually motivated street crime what would the stats be?

I can believe this. Men are overwhelmingly violent and are far more likely to come across a man walking alone rather than a woman (for obvious reasons). Maybe ask him what he's doing to stop male violence? Tweeting stats to women on twitter really isn't going to lower the rates of male on male violence, is it?

I think it's because sexual violence is counted separately so it doesn't show up in the same figures.

Is it me or does it feel a bit what about the menz?

As other posters have said, it's still male violence.

An average man is bigger, stronger, faster than an average woman so has a much better chance of fending off the attacker and running away.

I accept it is still a dreadful experience for a man. You would think, wouldn't you, that it would give us some common ground with decent men, rather than an excuse for men to shrug it off?

What I think men cannot comprehend is the extent of non violent harassment that women endure from men every single day. They have no idea whatsoever.

I would just reply "source, please?". Then if he can link to a reliable source for his figures I would back down graciously "OK, I didn't actually realise that, interesting". If he can't substantiate this claim beyond "my mate told me" then he'll look foolish.

The first question I'd want to ask is what's the source of this statistic? How is 'unprovoked street attack' defined?

Is it me or does it feel a bit what about the menz?

Yes - though it is a real problem. If I had sons it would bother me a lot. But, 'what about the men addressing the problem of male violence' rather than quibbling about who is most victimised by it, hmm?

I think it's because sexual violence is counted separately so it doesn't show up in the same figures.

Yes this is exactly it - I remember being shocked when looking at some stats and realising that they'd done this. Being raped isn't counted as 'violent crime' it's separate.

Young men are most likely to be murdered, that is true. My younger son was afraid to go out alone after dark, not because of the fear of rape but of being picked on and the threat of random violence by other teenagers/young men.

But you were being a bit what about the womenz? Weren't you? His concern over safety on the streets for his sex doesn't become less important because our sex has more to fear. You don't have to make everything into a competition and we don't always have to be worried about the most aggrieved class. It's five to be selfishly worried about one's on class of people. If you posted sonething like 'British women are frightened to walk the streets at night because of makes violence' and someone decided to shut down your western privilege with 'its far more dangerous for women in middle Eastern countries' that wouldn't make your concern any less valid would it? It might actually make you feel a bit silenced as if someone is trying to tell you that your valid concerns are a non-issue and you aren't allowed to talk about it.

I think it is true that men are more at risk of being the victim of male violence when they are out.

The difference is that men are not made to feel that they shouldn't have been out, that they haven't contributed to their victimhood by being out, and are also not socialised to be scared when walking alone at night.

Men don't routinely carry their keys between their fingers when out at night, they don't monitor each other's drinks for spiking, they don't think about the safest way home, at least not any of the ones I know. Maybe those who have been victims of violence think differently but I don't believe fear of violence is something that is socialised into them.

I would to hear more men talking about male violence.
I'd love to hear them saying, 'What the fuck's going on? What's the matter with us? What can we do about it?'
But instead all I hear from them (even decent men) most of the time is, ''Not all men....'.

I accept it is still a dreadful experience for a man. You would think, wouldn't you, that it would give us some common ground with decent men, rather than an excuse for men to shrug it off?
You'd think. I know some young guys who have been savagely attacked for something as ridiculous as walking through the wrong area. Young men are at risk from their peers, older men at risk from younger, etc.
My theory is that because a: there's less risk of rape/male rape is taboo and b: it's downplayed by men themselves even those men who are attacked don't see it as male violence. It's just that crazy guy/that beef/a mugger. #notallmen
Maybe the effects of having been beaten up are ameliorated by having the violence downplayed - some evidence to suggest "getting on with it" after a traumatic incident can help some people (obviously not all!). Maybe it's the lack of victim-shaming. Maybe it's just the fact a bloke can walk around with a black eye and people assume he's been in a fight and don't cringe back and avoid eye contact like they would with a "battered woman".
I guess it sounds like I'm minimising what happens to these men, and I shouldn't be. Because they do suffer from violence, and in some areas are unable to escape it. Massive government intervention was the only thing to resolve the huge rate of stabbings in Glasgow for example. It's just frustrating that it can't be seen for what it is.
Interestingly the unit that made such a huge difference there spoke to these young men's mothers too. My understanding was that the worst offenders were spoken to: "stop it or we'll throw the book at you" and mum got "get your boy in line or we'll evict you for antisocial behaviour". It would never fly in London, but worked well there, as it tied the violence to real life - families, homes, consequences. You could argue mum and the other kids should never have been put at risk of eviction but it appears to have forced the conversation between the standby young men and their families.
I've got a stinking cold so I hope that makes sense.

The reason why more men are attacked comes down to one fact of life:

Women do not go out as much because of the fear of crime, unless necessary.

Men get assaulted by other men in public. Women get assaulted by men in private.

I don't know whether the exact figure is correct, and of course men have very small chance of being raped or sexually assaulted.
I believe men do fear other men, though.
A very high proportion of the men I know have been attacked by other men. Sometimes 100% unprovoked - just walking down the street and a stranger has knocked them out with a punch.
Sometimes "provoked" - dressing in a different way or looking at someone funny.

"stabby" not "standby"

beenandgone my younger son does most of those things (not the key between the fingers which isn't wise anyway), in fact I'd say he's much more wary than I am, or certainly was when he was younger. Perhaps he's more self confident now, I don't know. I know he's very alert as to who else is on the street, and we don't live in a rough area, there's no gang activity.

Tom Farr comes to mind as one man who will talk about it and who seems willing to ask himself some difficult questions. There was a very good article of his linked on here a few days ago.

A very high proportion of the men I know have been attacked by other men. Sometimes 100% unprovoked - just walking down the street and a stranger has knocked them out with a punch
Do you think most men get over it more easily? Are they allowed to get over it without being victim blamed? Maybe we don't allow them to process it and expect them to shrug off terrifying violence as if it was nothing - and then wonder why young men flock to RooshV?
It's a derail, but how do we enable male victims to name male violence for what it is? If they can compartmentalise what has happened to them does that make them less sympathetic to women who have been attacked, even on a subconscious level?
Does a man realise that rape isn't like being beaten up, do you think?