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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"over 70% of unprovoked street attacks were men being violent to other men."

271 replies

golondrina · 08/10/2018 14:01

I commented on a tweet saying that men too are afraid of walking alone at night because of violence from other men. I said that it may be true that some men fear violent attack from other men, most don't. That men sometimes are afraid walking alone but that women are usually afraid of walking alone at night and that it was an important difference.

He's come back saying "over 70% of unprovoked street attacks were men being violent to other men" I want to reply with something specific, help me?

OP posts:
thedancingbear · 10/10/2018 13:35

Do they even want a stranger chasing someone down and demanding apologies on their behalf.

No, a simple 'pack it in mate, there's no need for that' will do in the situation you describe. But I'm pretty sure you already know that.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 10/10/2018 13:44

"Leave her alone you're upsetting her"

Would have been good as well.

Or even - after someone shouting stuff from a car - "I can't believe they did that are you OK".

Anything really, anything so that the girl - the child - is not left with the idea that really this is normal, no-one cares if she's upset or frightened, and it's her problem for her to carry.

I have also intervened -

But experience tells me that it is very very rare.

sawdustformypony · 10/10/2018 13:46

The problem is that it's a sure fire way of getting your teeth knocked out. The sort of arsewipe who does this kind of thing, almost by definition, falls into the violent category.

I don't find this to be the case - not the ones on their own (the rather sad 'something not right in the head' ones), they nearly all always back down fairly sharpish.

Sometimes you see it when the harassment is coming from someone in a group - trying to show off to his mates. Then you might get a tense standoff situation. But also, others in the group may tell him off too for being a twat. phew !

At the end of the day - you pick your own fights.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 10/10/2018 13:46

No-one is expecting anyone to start hauling poeple out of cars and beating them up.

Even something is better than nothing.

Nothing is what usually happens.

IcedPurple · 10/10/2018 13:55

@whatnow123

I agree that a lot of 'everyday' sexual harassment is insiduous and the perps are very good at being 'discreet'. My point was that while everyone thinks they'd be a hero and stand up for someone in trouble, in the vast majority of case, they won't.

I assume most women have had a sexual comment said to them in the street. Do they even want a stranger chasing someone down and demanding apologies on their behalf.

Not neccessarily but it can be reassuring to know that at least some men are on your side. Several years ago some idiot in a supermarket copped a feel when he was walking past. Another man in the shop obviously noticed and gave him an evil look, though - in the way that gropers do - the man had already moved 'out of range'. So even though this bystander didn't 'do' anything, the fact that he had noticed and was disgusted made me feel better.

Most of the time though, even this seems to be asking too much.

sawdustformypony · 10/10/2018 13:55

Blaming it on 'oxytocin' sounds like another 'male violence is all down to testosterone' cop out.

These chemical messengers have been there for millions of generations extending way back before our ancestors were hominids, I'd have thought that they must be doing something. Oxytocin affects men and women differently.

IcedPurple · 10/10/2018 13:58

These chemical messengers have been there for millions of generations extending way back before our ancestors were hominids, I'd have thought that they must be doing something. Oxytocin affects men and women differently.

If hormones are the excuse you are offering for men abandoning their familes, then surely such behaviour would be more widespread? Most men (I'm guessing) have airly similar levels of oxytocin. Yet most men don't walk out on their familes. So it can't just be about that, can it?

Not to mention that many men who abandon their kids go on to have more kids with another woman.

sawdustformypony · 10/10/2018 14:11

excuse you are offering

I'm saying that this might be a factor that may have some influence in the behaviour you are describing. Oxytocin is known to affect 'bonding' in humans. Are you saying that this is definitely irrelevant ?

UpstartCrow · 10/10/2018 14:12

No, we are saying its irrelevant to whether or not they can be bothered to pay maintenance.

IcedPurple · 10/10/2018 14:17

Are you saying that this is definitely irrelevant ?

As the person who suggested that some men walk out and leave their children in poverty because of a hormone, the onus is on you to prove that theory, not on me to disprove it.

sawdustformypony · 10/10/2018 14:17

No, we are saying its irrelevant to whether or not they can be bothered to pay maintenance

same thing isn't it ? - abandoning your family

sawdustformypony · 10/10/2018 14:58

I found this snippet in a review article about Oxytoxin, Dissecting the Role of Oxytocin in the Formation and Loss of Social Relationships .
This article is available for download from the internet.

Recently, a single 24-IU dose of oxytoxin was found to be sufficient for inducing a significant increase in perceived attachment security in male adults previously classified as insecure.

There is obviously a lot in the review paper but this caught my eye. Its the finding of a research paper, Buchheim A, Heinrichs M, George C, Pokorny D, Koops E, Henningsen P, et al. (2009): Oxytocin enhances the experience of attachment security. Psychoneuroendocrinology 34:1417–1422

food for thought perhaps instead of just dismissing it as an excuse and a cop out.

IcedPurple · 10/10/2018 15:17

Hastily googling an unsourced research paper - which I bet you haven't read - is poor stuff.

sawdustformypony · 10/10/2018 15:40

I've provided the source - its from a journal called Psychoneuroendocrinology. Its a research paper cited in a review paper . The link to the latter is here www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322315004369

You were most keen to know the reason why some men abandoned their families. You even had to ask the question several times - yet, you are dismissive of this particular school of thought on the matter. Hmm

IcedPurple · 10/10/2018 16:15

I haven't got time to read the whole thing. But since you presumably did, could you quote or summarise the bit where it says that men abandone their kids due to oxytocin, or lack thereof?

sawdustformypony · 10/10/2018 17:39

I've scanned through the article. It didn't take too much time. Helpfully, the review article is subdivided into different areas of research and suitable headings are provided to assist those with receptive minds - so not for everyone then, obvs.

I can not find a reference to the exact experiment that you seek. I dare say, it may never have been carried out.

Still...chance favours a prepared mind Grin !

sawdustformypony · 10/10/2018 18:30

Here's an amusing TED talk on the molecule. Please note, for those without much time, its a little over 16 minutes long. So....

Maybe those 'Bastards' he mentions are the ones that IcedPurple is on about.

MrGHardy · 10/10/2018 20:32

Well yes, more men are killed. But men generally don't go around scared of being killed. Of being mugged maybe many more than one would think (I do depending on where I am) but I dare say that isn't as traumatizing as the prospect of being raped.

And it's still male violence. Can't forget that.

AngryAttackKittens · 10/10/2018 21:02

Gosh, I was such a silly teenager, knowing all the wrong men, by which I mean every single man who was around when I was harassed in the street. And my classmates too! Every one of us should have just tried harder to meet the right men and make sure we were accompanied by one of the at all times. Kind of like the guardianship system in Saudi Arabia.

ScottCheggJnr · 11/10/2018 00:04

It's heartening to see that at least a few posters see where I'm coming from - I was a little worried that I'd lost the baby along with the bathwater by letting my stubbornness drag me into a petty tit for tat argument which was never my intention.

To attempt to answer some of the questions, I'm not sure how women can prevent their partners from leaving them tbh. There are so many idiosyncratic situations, each different from the next. I guess my point was a more peripheral one that when women do find themselves in this situation there are still likely many things they can do which may contribute to a better outcome for their sons.

In many instances I think the adolescent male will still have his difficult stage and be an unreasonable little bugger, but this is a lesser problem than him turning into a dangerous adult, especially if be 'turns out ok' before reaching full adulthood.

This was certainly the case with myself. My mother was extremely overbearing and a downright bully to my extremely passive and gentle father. She would frequently lock him out of the house when in a bad mood (forcing him to stay in a hotel) and would do many other spiteful things like hide the router/change the login when he needed to upload his work, hide his car keys in the morning until he 'apologised' (grovelled) for some ridiculous made up infringement, etc. Not on the scale of domestic violence etc but it turned him into a shell of the man he was over a couples of decades and he still seems so heartbreakingly weary. It really affected me growing up in that environment, especially when I had issues which I felt I couldn't discuss for fear of 'adding to the problems'.

It made me grow up with a warped, angry view of the world and I could easily have become a violent individual had I not vented my frustration with drugs/alcohol and taking up thai boxing, which was ultimately one of the most stabilising influences on my life. By my early teens I had already decided that I wasn't going to be a 'pushover' like my father and it led me to have a very confrontational and aggressive attitude.

I was diagnosed with clinical depression at the age of 16 and I used to sit in my bedroom drinking bottles of Jack Daniels and smoking weed out my window whilst my mum spent the entire evening screaming at my dad for some minor transgression downstairs. This then progressed to taking coke, ecstasy, acid and anything else I could get my hands on by the time I was 18, this being funded by me selling weed at college.

Despite all this, I knew that my mum loved me and would do anything for me, even if she wouldn't admit it, and when I grew out of my angry stage I became a fairly decent member of society with a stable career, a close friend group and a loving partner. I just realised that my mum was an imperfect individual like we all are in some ways and our relationship improved dramatically.

But it's easy for me to see how other young men in my situation who weren't as blessed with a good education (or got into the wrong company) and who didn't find an outlet for their anger could become a real problem for society, and I also realise how much an effect one's mother can have on the way they turn out, maybe even more so if they're the sole parent.

theOtherPamAyres · 11/10/2018 00:35

I'd be interested to know the source of "unprovoked" "street attack" and 70%

The police record assaults.
It would need something like a Freedom of Information Request to ask the police to examine every assault case and tell us how many of those assaults
-took place on a street
-were unprovoked.

I can imagine that if there was a small project monitoring assaults at a specific location over a few months (eg Luton Town Centre; or an area that was within 500 metres of a premier League Club; or the Gay Village in Manchester) then you might be able to come up with a statistic.

But it doesn't follow that the special area is representative of the country.

Where did the statistic come from and is it reliable?

ScottCheggJnr · 11/10/2018 01:06

I'm not sure about that statistic, but the Canadian ones can be found on Wikipedia (with links) and the others are available in the ONS data, which must have a wide reach as it references there being over a million violent incidents in that 12 month period.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 11/10/2018 08:23

So now internet men are claiming that when men don't financially support their own offspring, it's due to hormones.

Right .

AngryAttackKittens · 11/10/2018 08:26

I really can't be arsed to engage with this tedious MRA any further.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 11/10/2018 08:30

Good point Pam

I also find the idea that 30% of unprovoked violent attacks are against women high, to be honest, given that we get the vast majority of all street harassment, groping, getting flashed at and worse.

Although I have had a fair bit of aggression from random men including being punched in the face.

So if it's 30% PLUS all the other shit, that's MORE shit, surely.

You're right it would have to be FOI as provocation isn't included in usual stats. And anyway is vv subjective.

Women and girls are commonly seen to "provoke " a lot of the sexual offending against them by basically exciting, for example. (Although your average person tries to dress it up a bit more than that, boils down to the same thing though).