Aggressive Feminism Boards

[PerverseConverse]

I've been on this board for a while now and long enough to understand the issues and why women are so vocal about them and angry that our rights are threatened.
I'm frustrated reading on other threads, or on social media that this board is aggressive, shoots down discussion, and calls people names if their views don't match the majority. I can't say that I've seen that myself. All I see is intelligent discussion and persuasive arguments. Any goadiness is appropriately dealt with from what I've read as are any views that don't match reality. Maybe that's what upsets people: that their delusions are challenged with indisputable reality.
I'm still new to feminism and learning daily but I see women fighting for other women and prepared to get flak for that. I see some women who have been well and truly brainwashed by the trans movement and by men and the patriarchy in general. And that's the other criticism: that we are too focused on the trans issue. That makes me angry. The trans issue is the major one affecting women and girls at the moment and it's right that we are focused on it.
These complaints are coming from women who are calling themselves feminists and it baffles me completely that feminists can't understand the biggest threat to women and girls.
Now, I'm aware these so called feminists may well be trolls but I don't think they all are. How can some feminists be so opposed to other feminists passionately protecting their rights? Rights that are for ALL women.

It's a classic way of trying to reduce women's power by putting us into sub categories. Let's not fall for it.

We all understand what adult human female means. Your average three year old has no problem understanding what a woman is.

Language matters. We all know what a woman is.

Right so if woman who produce eggs is the definition of female, and your definition of woman is ‘adult human female’ how does that work?

Or is the definition, people who do or appear to.. therefore making your denunciation of a woman ‘someone who is or appears to be able to have children’ which if I’m not mistaken, would include someone who looked like a woman, even if biologically they are not?

Or am I mistaken.

*definition

Well Verbeena if you don't want to define woman, then that's fine.

But then you don't get to call people transphobic for not believing that transwomen are women.

THIS

Yes you're mistaken. Of the class who produce ova not the clas who look like they might produce ova.

Ah - I see you want to play devide and conquer with women who do or don't have children?
Women who don't produce eggs are women. I had ovarian cancer and had my ovaries removed but, yes, I'm still a woman. Every post menopause woman is also female.

But that is not your definition of a woman.

That is your definition of a woman, further qualified with additional statements to include some that don't fit with your original definition.

Your definition does not include everyone that we know to be women.

We all know what a woman is.

Yes and all this handwringing and discussion over 'what a woman is' really pisses me off, because oppressors over history have had no such issue with working out who are the women and who are the men.

We all know what a woman is: we all came out of one.

I also copied this from someone somewhere!

It is extremely sad that we have reached an era in which feelings determine the nature of debates — not arguments, not facts. It is also concerning that emotional reactions to arguments matter more than the arguments themselves

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!

Agree with this,actually. Everyone has the right to their opinion (even if they're bigoted ones) and people can and should disagree.
What's not OK is personal attacks though of which there's a lot if you post in favour of the man's point of view on MN.

I get what you are saying Lass but I don't see being asked if you are a man as a bad thing. It's just a question that can be easily be answered

Even more disingenuous. It is asked as a "gotcha" , trump card. "You are a man, your opinion on this isn't valid"

Often it isn't even asked but just stated.

I'm not saying it's never happened. Just that I personally have never seen a genuine poster on FWR hounded away by being told they are a man

I have. One poster in particular, long history of posting with reference to her female experience , including talking about leaving an abusive relationship, but told repeatedly on a thread that she was a man.

@Estellesylvia I wholeheartedly agree! I haven't read anything to convince me, quite the opposite in fact.

Well, my dear, if you come on feminism boards posting on behalf of men, you’ll get exactly what you deserve. You poke the bear and then complain when you get what you asked for? You are funny.

The second post on the first page of this thread: If you've too delicate for MN I suggest netmums reminded me of discussions on Guardian CIF about 10 years ago, when they were trying to hold discussions about why so few women posted there. A particularly objectionable, pompous male decreed: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." I've never forgotten it.

Speaking as a victim of female socialisation, who has struggled most of my life with extreme shyness and fear of social situations, I do feel that a small minority here seem very unsympathetic to a large swathe of women, those women who have the "wrong" personalities, who aren't GNC enough, who don't measure up to their standards of how women ought to feel and behave, who aren't sufficiently "robust".

Mumsnet has huge numbers of women coming here. It ought to be the prime place for converting women to feminism. I find it really depressing to think how many hundreds, if not thousands of women could have been peak-transed well before now, and introduced to other feminist ideas, if FWR hadn't been experienced by so many as a hostile, unwelcoming place in recent years. I don't want to upset anyone (that damn female socialisation again), but please, at least think about what I'm saying here.

If they said 'I have a problem with the very idea that men can become women' then that is different.

Yes it is. But most of these posters don't understand that difference. Particularly Brown and Verbeena.

'Aggressive' is the word used of women behaving in ways which in men would be unremarkable or at most 'assertive'.

Can't be helped, except by carrying on being assertive to hopefully normalise it.

Anyone that disagrees will very quickly have their points dismissed by being called a handmaiden, a troll or a man
I don't think so.

I have a different line to many on the feminism board regarding trans women in single sex spaces (as in I'm happy for post op genuine transwoman to be in single sex spaces) but also have a massive problem with self ID, men's rights activism & TRA.
Nobody has called me a handmaiden for having a different view.

I would never join twitter or facebook - they seem totally toxic and nasty to me, and frightening. I lurked on mumsnet for ages before deciding to try and participate more. I feel safe here. people may have a different views to me,and may argue them robustly, but I know no-one is going to say i should be raped, decapitated and all manner of things you see on other social media, just because of my views

Ironically if we were men we'd be called strong willed. But we're women so we're called angry

Being born without a womb is a uniquely female experience. No man has ever experienced this.

Not having periods because there is something wrong with your reproductive system or you have been through menopause is a uniquely female experience. No man has ever experienced this.

Not producing eggs because there is something wrong with your reproductive system or you have been through menopause is a uniquely female experience. No man has ever experienced this.

Childbirth is a uniquely female experience. No man has ever experienced this.

Periods are a uniquely female experience. No man has ever experienced this.

Not having periods because you have a male reproductive system is a uniquely male experience. No woman has ever experienced this.

Not producing eggs because you have a male reproductive system and you actually produce sperm is a uniquely male experience. No woman has ever experienced this.

You get where I am going with this?

Well, my dear, if you come on feminism boards posting on behalf of men, you’ll get exactly what you deserve. You poke the bear and then complain when you get what you asked for? You are funny.

Did I say I was posting on behalf of men? Did I mention the feminism board in particular? I said Mumsnet.
It's rife. A thread about PND in men a while back (main boards) got particularly vile. Where anyone can answer. Ended up getting deleted altogether in the end I think.
Which I'm mentioning as it's absolutely relevant to saying that if you post against the grain the name calling starts.

A woman's reproductive system is designed to produce eggs. That fact that some women’s reproductive systems do not produce eggs doesn’t change that.

YY. People really think this lame sophistry is some sort of killer argument. I despair for critical thinking and reason.

It is extremely sad that we have reached an era in which feelings determine the nature of debates — not arguments, not facts. It is also concerning that emotional reactions to arguments matter more than the arguments themselves

And I agree that facts and proof are important in debate. But not everything in life is black and white, provable by fact.

Many laws aren't based on fact. They are based on moral judgements as to what is right or wrong. Where did those judgements come from in order to make the laws? In many cases from religion and more often than not as a way to control the poor and keep them in their place.

Show me facts that prove murder should be illegal? Or robbery? There is no proof. It is a collective agreement that morally these things are wrong and are now enshrined in law.

Another relevant quote

There are lies, damned lies and statistics not all "facts" are "proof".

but I know no-one is going to say i should be raped, decapitated and all manner of things you see on other social media, just because of my views

Is that really the best standard of sisterhood we can aspire to here? Sorry, I understand what you mean, and of course you're right, but I don't think it makes sense to compare male-dominated spaces with female dominated ones. After all, there is a reason why we want female-only spaces, and that's because of male aggressioin.

Posting on behalf of men? Oh give over! You’re embodying the exact issue we have. I’m posting on behalf of myself thanks, and will continue to do so, even when it’s suggested I am not 👍🏼

Oh boy... this thread... my husband and I talk about this sort of emotional manipulation all the time... this constant demand we all make of each other, to change our words and sometimes our thoughts, to accommodate others feelings. If we don’t, we are evil! Difficult! Putting people off! Of course it’s the fault of the outspoken! The angry feminists are the problem!

No! This is the problem. What you’re all doing now.

If you don’t like the way feminism is done here, don’t come here. Facebook etc have plenty of liberal feminism spaces. Just stop arguing for fucks sake. Even this post is goady, and I agree with it. We have shit to do. Let’s get on with it.