Aggressive Feminism Boards

[PerverseConverse]

I've been on this board for a while now and long enough to understand the issues and why women are so vocal about them and angry that our rights are threatened.
I'm frustrated reading on other threads, or on social media that this board is aggressive, shoots down discussion, and calls people names if their views don't match the majority. I can't say that I've seen that myself. All I see is intelligent discussion and persuasive arguments. Any goadiness is appropriately dealt with from what I've read as are any views that don't match reality. Maybe that's what upsets people: that their delusions are challenged with indisputable reality.
I'm still new to feminism and learning daily but I see women fighting for other women and prepared to get flak for that. I see some women who have been well and truly brainwashed by the trans movement and by men and the patriarchy in general. And that's the other criticism: that we are too focused on the trans issue. That makes me angry. The trans issue is the major one affecting women and girls at the moment and it's right that we are focused on it.
These complaints are coming from women who are calling themselves feminists and it baffles me completely that feminists can't understand the biggest threat to women and girls.
Now, I'm aware these so called feminists may well be trolls but I don't think they all are. How can some feminists be so opposed to other feminists passionately protecting their rights? Rights that are for ALL women.

What about when I answered that I just "am" a woman? I feel like a woman inside too. How it must be terrifying to not "match up?"

OK.

But what if I don't feel like a woman on this inside? I don't know I am a woman because I feel like one on the inside. I know I am a woman because of my material experiences of my female body: breasts, periods, trying to avoid pregnancy, going for smear tests, trying to get pregnant, childbirth, breastfeeding, being smaller than average, probably being weaker than average. I dont feel like a woman, I know I am a woman because of my female body.

Yes if I woke up tomorrow morning and had male genitals I would feel very uncomfortable, but that's not because I'm a woman on the inside, it's because I have spent my whole life with a female body (us it wouldn't happen anyway).

And I still dont see how your answer gives a definition of woman.

By the way, my response is not me 'saying your answer is the wrong one and dismissing it' its me countering what you have said.

Why does someone's definition of woman matter to this discussion?

Quite a brilliant question to ask on a feminist board. Feminism is about women's rights. In order to discuss women's rights we first need to agree on what a woman is. It's fundamental to any discussion on this forum.

Where are people saying self ID is a good thing for women? I haven't seen it at all on here
Well exactly.
I can see no positive advantages for women at all, and some serious negatives for the most vulnerable women (including girls here). I think everyone should feel free to state that on a feminist board without being accused of hate or aggression.

Earlywalker

I don't think anyone would suggest that your sister is not a woman. She's of the female sex.

And

they are people and they should be free to live in peace without predjudice

Again, I am yet to come across anyone here who doesn't wish this for trans people.

I think what the vast majority of posters here hope for is an open discussion leading to the development of solutions which protect the safety and dignity of trans people while absolutely protecting the sex-based rights of women and girls, and giving their safety and dignity equal weight.

And the other question I would like answered in the statement 'transwomen are women' is 'what is a transwoman'?

How does one qualify as a transwoman for that statement to be true? Is it surgery, hormones, a diagnosis of gender dysphoria (even though I thought being trans wasn't a mental illness?), just their word? Do they have to have been 'living as a woman' (whatever that means) for a set period of time?

Oh Lordy. There is no attempt at censoring, or wanting to stop anyone discussing what IS a very relevant and important issue. It is about the treatment of other women (some of who may well be vulnerable) who dare to have a different opinion. Even if their view is pretty much the same!

Please read what is being said and not endlessly repeating the same cut and paste replies.

Again, I am yet to come across anyone here who doesn't wish this for trans people.

I've seen one state that they have a problem with them all. Which is what made me think WTF and back away.

‘Definition of woman’ is ABSOLUTELY the issue. The discussion can not proceed without accord on that point.

It’s like a Christian trying to convince me that there is a God by just repeatedly saying: ‘There is a God’ or ‘There is a God because I personally have a relationship with God’. I mean no offence to theists, by the way. Strangely, I have never been called ‘faithophobic’ or told to ‘fuck of’ by theists when I have expressed my valid belief that there is no God.

I cannot be expected to blindly believe in an idea for which I see no evidence (or in fact for which the evidence I see supports the opposite idea). Why is that so offensive to lib fems? Some of them must surely be atheists and be able to understand the analogy in these terms?

If you are going to use a style of debate that resembles the technique 'fogging' more than it does 'debate', then its not going to get very far, and people are going to get annoyed.

Verbeena, I think I saw someone say similar once. That’s the true Radfem position, I think. It’s as valid as any other opinion, but it is quite extreme. It’s not a view I hold either, but I didn’t ‘back away’. Debate isn’t scary.

I've seen one state that they have a problem with them all. Which is what made me think WTF and back away.

If they said 'I have a problem with them all' then that should have been reported and deleted, as that sounds like they are making judgements on trans people as people.

If they said 'I have a problem with the very idea that men can become women' then that is different.

I think the board is fantastic. It is optional whether one reads and partakes in discussions. The focus it has taken and that has organically developed is solely because that is what users want to discuss.

Having said that, I find myself increasingly uncomfortable and sometimes alienated from the board not because of the content per se but because of the increasingly adversarial stance taken. This can often give the impression of ill will - which is never a good thing in my book.

My over riding concern with the proposed changes to the GRA is the eradication of a meaningful category for females. I think this is vital for our safety and to try and secure greater equality for women. I think it is unfortunate that in having this category, some groups of people feel excluded and will be, on occasion, excluded. I think this is unfortunate but unavoidable. I therefore expect and understand experiencing push back when I express my wants/interests, from those whose interests/wants are threatened by my interests. I also think people who express such opposition should expect and understand my push back when they express their interests.

I think the increased level of perceived threat, as the consultation period draws to an end, that is being experienced by 'both sides' is leading to people adopting intrenched 'positions' rather than focusing on interests. When this happens debate is often limited.

I'm struggling to see how asking what the definition of women is is shitting down debate (especially on a feminist board). Surely it is opening up the debate?

Because that isn't what the OP is about so why keep asking the same question of the same person? What are you hoping to achieve?

Why hasn't anyone answered my questions. Or more importantly, why not answer @Earlywalker point about her sister?

Especially @HamiltonCork who is so desperate for a definition of "woman". What is your definition?

Not sure who that is to upstart but proving my point very validly there. Can’t even bloody debate right!

FWR has always been attacked, long before the trans issue came to the forefront.

MRAs, F4J, ArRSE et al would come on haranguing posters, making threats, doxxing and maliciously reporting when the 'uppity women' wouldn't bow down or shut up.

There are many, many men out there that don't want women to have a voice. That see MN as a place full of middle aged white women who need to get back in the kitchen. They think that by abusing posters it will shut down debate - instead what happened was more women were radicalised.

Whilst I don't subscribe to "poster disagreed therefore must be Male" I completely understand why some do, especially those women whose heads were above the parapet when all this 'twas fields.

The complaints really aren't a new thing. Wherever women stand up for themselves there will be others in the shadows waiting to shut them down - whether that is with threats, or with "why can't you be nice?"

Well we don't have to be nice. Nice girls get abused, nice girls get attacked and nice girls come last. I've long since lost any semblance of being "nice". Being nice got us where we are now.

Sigh, it's yet another "women, why can't you just be nicer?" thread.

My definition of woman is adult human female.

I'm not offended at very bing asked and it took me two seconds to type.

I know it must be very intimidating to post an opinion that goes against the grain here, but you can still post. No one is actually censoring you, taking away your right to reply. That would be shutting down debate.

Making a statement and having it challenged, even robustly, is what debate looks like.

P.s. sorry if I mess up the italics on this!

Nice certainly hasn’t got me attacked/coming last so don’t tar us with the same brush. I can be nice/assertive/whatever I want. I don’t have to go around telling people their views are bollocks or that what they believe means they hate women or are on the men’s side.

It does make me laugh that people think that, on a board about women's rights, the definition of 'women' is just like soooooooo not relevant.

Would you say the same about discussion about disability rights? I mean, do we really need strict definitions of 'disabled' in order to be able to talk about rights for disabled people? Or can we just let anyone join in?

But what if I don't feel like a woman on this inside? I don't know I am a woman because I feel like one on the inside. I know I am a woman because of my material experiences of my female body: breasts, periods, trying to avoid pregnancy, going for smear tests, trying to get pregnant, childbirth, breastfeeding,

So @Elephantinacravat your definition of "woman" excludes the PPs sister who was born without a womb and so therefore won't experience periods, pregnancy, breast feeding or possibly having a smear.

What would you describe her as then? A man because she can't experience these things?

I’m not asking anyone to be nice! Just don’t call me a fucking handmaiden or imply I’m not a proper feminist because I don’t follow to the letter what is being said here.

Yes, I remember the MRA trolling on here looooooong before the trans issue came to the fore.

There has always been an air of caution and defensiveness on these boards because of it.

why is it seen as being a bad thing being asked if you are a man? The men in my life are amazing (dad, husband, sons, nephews)

That is disingenuous. The "you're a man" accusations are intended to invalidate posters' opinions.

They are men and so are not part of the female experience we are all supposed to share. Opinions are being given by men which take no account of the female reality.

For example I was told I have so much to learn about being a woman.

For people who wanted to hide the board and of course did so, it's strange that some found this thread so quickly.