Aggressive Feminism Boards

[PerverseConverse]

I've been on this board for a while now and long enough to understand the issues and why women are so vocal about them and angry that our rights are threatened.
I'm frustrated reading on other threads, or on social media that this board is aggressive, shoots down discussion, and calls people names if their views don't match the majority. I can't say that I've seen that myself. All I see is intelligent discussion and persuasive arguments. Any goadiness is appropriately dealt with from what I've read as are any views that don't match reality. Maybe that's what upsets people: that their delusions are challenged with indisputable reality.
I'm still new to feminism and learning daily but I see women fighting for other women and prepared to get flak for that. I see some women who have been well and truly brainwashed by the trans movement and by men and the patriarchy in general. And that's the other criticism: that we are too focused on the trans issue. That makes me angry. The trans issue is the major one affecting women and girls at the moment and it's right that we are focused on it.
These complaints are coming from women who are calling themselves feminists and it baffles me completely that feminists can't understand the biggest threat to women and girls.
Now, I'm aware these so called feminists may well be trolls but I don't think they all are. How can some feminists be so opposed to other feminists passionately protecting their rights? Rights that are for ALL women.

btw- Saying men tend to speak in a certain way is noting socialisation. Saying they are less of a man if they do not speak in a certain way is...the opposite of gender critical.

YY.

Wow, 32 pages of posts and we still haven't had an explanation of why not including transwomen in your definition of woman is transphobic, nor have we had a definition of which transwomen should and shouldn't be allowed to come under the definition of woman and which criteria they need to fulfil (and no, saying 'I know I am a woman because if I woke up tomorrow with a male body I would be really upset' doesn't cut the mustard here).

I would say that's quite an achievement actually.

OunceOfFlounce

But saying that if someone speaks in a "male" way they must be male is succumbing to stereotypes. Just as much as saying that person is wearing pink so they must be female because only females wear pink.

comments that historically would have been totally acceptable are now considered racist or sexist.

The racism parallel is a good one, as only a couple of decades ago some that definitely was seen as "acceptable" in the 70s say definitely aren't now.

yep it's bed time for my tribe

for Eresh

and nice to see some new posters here!

Actually, it's not an achievement at all, it's what I have seen on every thread on this subject. A complete lack of logical argument.

The racism parallel is a good one, as only a couple of decades ago some that definitely was seen as "acceptable" in the 70s say definitely aren't now.

I'm pretty sure that humans couldn't change sex in the 70s either.

Wow, 32 pages of posts and we still haven't had an explanation of why not including transwomen in your definition of woman is transphobic, nor have we had a definition of which transwomen should and shouldn't be allowed to come under the definition of woman and which criteria they need to fulfil (and no, saying 'I know I am a woman because if I woke up tomorrow with a male body I would be really upset' doesn't cut the mustard here).

Because asking to define what is a woman wasn't the OP and with this post alone it's clear that if it's not an answer you want to hear then it doesn't cut the mustard and then wheee it all starts up and goes round again.

But saying that if someone speaks in a "male" way they must be male is succumbing to stereotypes. Just as much as saying that person is wearing pink so they must be female because only females wear pink.

No, it's an understanding of socialised behaviour leading someone to perceive sex. We're working towards smashing the patriarchy but not quite happened yet

I'm pretty sure that humans couldn't change sex in the 70s either.

Deliberately missing the point? Or trying to be funny?

Cheers for the cake Bernard!

Deliberately missing the point? Or trying to be funny?

The point is that changing sex isn't possible. It's not an opinion.

Because asking to define what is a woman wasn't the OP and with this post alone it's clear that if it's not an answer you want to hear then it doesn't cut the mustard and then wheee it all starts up and goes round again.

yes, yes it does.

Like I said upthread Verbeena, don't go around accusing people of transphobia because they don't believe that transwomen are women if you can't give a definition of either woman or transwoman. It's not a good look.

Ereshkigal

And that isn't what happened and you know it.

No 2 or 3 posters.

I replied to a poster. You then twisted my reply.

Don't claim I am misunderstanding you or whatever.

I replied to a poster. You then twisted my reply. Don't claim I am misunderstanding you or whatever.

Has done it a few times, and contradicted too. Twisty twisty with it.

But saying that if someone speaks in a "male" way they must be male is succumbing to stereotypes.

There are some interesting studies about male / female speech patterns which identify some strong correlations.

They're long established and of course represent socialisation rather than biology.

I've often thought it would be an interesting linguistic study looking at social media postings.

I have been told sometimes in rl in my job (scientist) that I "think like a man"
That has been meant both as a compliment at having achieved something and sometimes as disapproval

I have been called "strident" when disagreeing politely with a man and pointing out the correct facts,
whereas noone has ever commented on men shouting me down or talking over me in meetings - that is "normal vigorous discussion"

Societal expectations and treatment are often harsher for women.

So, VerbenaBeeks — if you had absolute control over the FWR boards, what would you do so that the conversations here proceeded in a way satisfactory to you? I ask the same question of BrownPaperTeddy.

I don't see trans issues as the only issue facing women and so I would like to see a lot more debate on other issues.

I don't see that chucking insults is ever a good idea - it just shows a weak argument - so why allow it?

On the trans issue - it is happening. I see no point in going back in time to when it didn't happen. You can't make transmen or transwomen disappear (rightly so) so we need to find ways that society works for everyone. What will be achieved by just "no."? Decisions will be made that we won't be a part of if we simply refuse to recognise the issue.

On the trans issue - it is happening. I see no point in going back in time to when it didn't happen. You can't make transmen or transwomen disappear (rightly so) so we need to find ways that society works for everyone. What will be achieved by just "no."?

Same as what brownpaperteddy said.

BigChocFrenzy

Does it not strike you as odd though that feminists, on the feminist board, would also subscribe to these stereotypes?

And ascribing it to socialisation? Just another way of saying stereotypes.

Why aren't women celebrating other women who break the mould? Who don't behave like "women", whatever that means? Instead the message that I'm getting is that unless I behave like a woman I will be dismissed as a man.

That's an interesting concept on a feminist board isn't it? Women, even feminists, expect other women to "behave as women"?

Hey Elephant I’ve tried my hardest to find that definition. It’s nigh on impossible because at what point DO you draw the line? Hormones? Surgery? I don’t know because to draw that line then excludes others who cannot for any reason makes those changes. I don’t think that makes transpeople any less valid, but nor does it mean that I’m ok with an entire male sharing a changing room with me.

This is why I need FWR, to be able to get other’s opinions on these issues. To sound out my thoughts and see where others stand and if that is something that I agree to. So when, in the past, I have put forward ideas and views and been called whatever, it’s so disheartening to think that my opinions don’t matter a bit.

And that isn't what happened and you know it.

It is. It is exactly what happened. Read back.

This is where it started:

Eresh: I was talking about men posting on trans issues.

BPT: Why can't men post on trans issues though?

To which I replied

didn't say they couldn't. Just that it is arrogant to tell women what we are allowed to think about it when it affects them much less.

The contextual issues were discussed by a number of posters including you. You didn't appear to grasp the point that others were making and instead were focusing on the exact wording of my original statement even though I said that I didn't say men couldn't post on trans issues, just (if not careful) that it could come across as arrogant. Oppressor class talking down to the oppressed. That was the context. Others got it.

This is spectacularly dull for others to read I imagine so I'll stop there.

The main issues discussed at the moment are Safeguarding, Women's rights, free speech and parliamentary process etc

It doesn't help to see this as 'trans issues'.
Rather, it only helps those who wish them to be seen this way

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3387399-List-of-the-various-rights-UK-women-are-losing-in-2018

What will be achieved by just "no."?

Who knows? I'd like to give it a go. Women matter too. Why are our feelings and needs less important?