Aggressive Feminism Boards

[PerverseConverse]

I've been on this board for a while now and long enough to understand the issues and why women are so vocal about them and angry that our rights are threatened.
I'm frustrated reading on other threads, or on social media that this board is aggressive, shoots down discussion, and calls people names if their views don't match the majority. I can't say that I've seen that myself. All I see is intelligent discussion and persuasive arguments. Any goadiness is appropriately dealt with from what I've read as are any views that don't match reality. Maybe that's what upsets people: that their delusions are challenged with indisputable reality.
I'm still new to feminism and learning daily but I see women fighting for other women and prepared to get flak for that. I see some women who have been well and truly brainwashed by the trans movement and by men and the patriarchy in general. And that's the other criticism: that we are too focused on the trans issue. That makes me angry. The trans issue is the major one affecting women and girls at the moment and it's right that we are focused on it.
These complaints are coming from women who are calling themselves feminists and it baffles me completely that feminists can't understand the biggest threat to women and girls.
Now, I'm aware these so called feminists may well be trolls but I don't think they all are. How can some feminists be so opposed to other feminists passionately protecting their rights? Rights that are for ALL women.

But how can you accept someone whose very beliefs you believe to be harmful? Do you not have a fundamental problem with Catholics just based on their beliefs?

I don't have to accept them Verbeena. Just get along with them

would I marry a practising Catholic? Nope

would i be close friends with a practising Catholic? hmm. I don't think we'd be sympatico, but I'm always open minded about such things and ready to make new friends

Do I successfully work closely with practising Catholics? Yep

I don't say that I think their beliefs are equivalent to the giant spider from south park and they don't shun me for using birth control

it's all fine due to us all being able to behave like grown ups

I don't know that the argument can end there. TRA would say that if a person in a man's body can actually be a woman, we have no right to exclude them from women's spaces. The logical conclusion of the belief that a man can be a woman is allowing men into women's spaces. You need to come to a conclusion on whether a man can be a woman and whether we make everyone share that belief, not just whether self id should be rolled out.

I think the more apt analogy with religion would be something like atheists being made to believe in Catholicism despite best evidence. It feels like we are being made to believe humans can change sex.

And sorry, I've taken ages to write this. I know I'm going to x post hideously!

VerbeenaBeeks
I would guess what they are saying is they have no issue with MTF trans women, but don't believe that someone can literally change their biological sex.
E.g. If someone has undergone full transition then they are a transwoman & should be accepted and supported as such, but they are not in the full, biological sense a woman like a natal woman.

Personally, I don't believe someone can change biological sex. I do believe that trans people who experience dysphoria should be able to transition and live as (close to) a woman/man and be free from discrimination (with some categorical sex protections e.g. women's sports). I will happily share spaces with post op transitioned transwomen.

I won't share spaces by men wearing dresses, self IDing their way onto women's shortlists, women's sports teams, events designed to help challenge structural discrimination against women etc.

The TRA agenda is quite dangerous because it lumps genuine transmen and transwoman in with MRA & men who wish to silence women.

None of us on this thread have even hinted at the fact that we agree with self ID. We have all been very clear that we don't agree with it. No bait and switch going on at all

I've never said I agree with self ID either. In fact I've said the exact opposite, that of course there's concerns around that.

On the why do definitions matter/definition of marriage question.

Marriage is a social construct. We have defined it and written it into law according to our customs. Changing laws about who can access a custom isn't the same as changing the definition of it. Like, voting is still voting even though women are allowed to do it now.

The definition of woman is important though, because it is describing a universal, natural, observable phenomenon. It doesn't matter what the exact word Is, different languages use different words, but the concept of mammalian reproduction, including females as distinct from males, exists. Having words to describe what we observe and experience is part of human civilization. Changing the definition of an observable fact to include it's distinct opposite renders a term useless and literally nonsensical - having no sense.

But it is not about excluding anyone, because they are Christian. Male spaces are open to transwomen, after all. Same rights as all other males. What you expect is everyone to worship their golden calf and bow to their magic interpretation of reality.

I don't have to accept them Verbeena. Just get along with them

Don't think that was me who said that,so not sure why my name mentioned?

Allowing people to present and dress however they wish and smashing gender as a concept is a good thing. Removing all sex based protections from women is not.

Except that this won't work in society unless everywhere becomes unisex. At some point an individual will have to decide do they go into the male or female toilets for example. At what point do you allow a transwoman into the female toilet? Or is it never? Because that, whether you intend it to be or not, is excluding them, is making their life difficult, is removing their dignity.

yes you did verbeena - in the post above mine

Anyone else though, all transwomen if they don't, you have a problem with.
Got you. As you won't accept them as women.

I'm very much admiring your tenacity this afternoon!

"Separate the ideology from the individual. none of us dislike anyone simply because, or discriminate against people simply because, they are trans. We are saying that the ideology is troubling, because it has a lot of knock on issues that affect women. "

Just a point on this.

There was a thread on here this week about a trans teenager (I think it was pulled). It was a thread essentially laughing at the person. You may think they are silly, that is your right (I may not disagree with you). But to create a whole thread mocking one person specifically because they are trans /non binary? You can say that is not transphobic, but that is definitely how it came across. When I raised that on another thread I was told it was posted because people are so frustrated with the trans narrative.

So frustrated with trans as a group that they were justified in criticising and mocking an individual teenager simply because they were openly trans / non binary.

That is individual, and no-one seemed to think it was problematic from the responses I saw.

Just out of curiosity, do any FWR regulars see my point on this?

At what point do you allow a transwoman into the female toilet? Or is it never? Because that, whether you intend it to be or not, is excluding them, is making their life difficult, is removing their dignity

This

At what point do you allow a transwoman into the female toilet? Or is it never? Because that, whether you intend it to be or not, is excluding them, is making their life difficult, is removing their dignity.

only if you believe that transwoman has changed sex

if you understand that they are still male, then you understand that gthe appropriate place for them is the gents/mens changing room/mens sports/not on an all women short list

@MaisyPops

I think that is about where I am on this.

Self ID is ludicrous and whilst, biologically, I don't think you can change sex, if someone genuinely chooses to under go gender re assignement then I will accept them whole heartedly.

It shouldn't matter what some activists are demanding. The politicians and law makers need to apply common sense and refuse to bow to them. But the nastier the arguments get the more the moderate voices disappear and only the bigoted opinions remain.

'At what point do you allow a transwoman into the female toilet? Or is it never? Because that, whether you intend it to be or not, is excluding them, is making their life difficult, is removing their dignity.'

We've all established there is a clash! If using male toilets removes their dignity what does allowing men into women's toilets do to women's dignity? Why is that less important? Women are physically weaker than men.

^Anyone else though, all transwomen if they don't, you have a problem with.
Got you. As you won't accept them as women^.

I don't have a problem with them unless they unreasonably demand that I see them as women when they aren't.

yes I do see your point JustBecauseYouAreUniqueDoesNot

I posted on that thread and then really regretted it afterwards

Why is it removing anyone‘s dignity to acknowledge their biological sex? And does it then also remove StefonKnee‘s dignity, if we do not acknowledge her self-described age alongside her self-described sex?

Because that, whether you intend it to be or not, is excluding them, is making their life difficult, is removing their dignity.

Why is removing women's dignity better?

But how can you accept someone whose very beliefs you believe to be harmful? Do you not have a fundamental problem with Catholics just based on their beliefs?

I don't have to accept them Verbeena. Just get along with them

yes you did verbeena - in the post above mine
Just gone back to have a look, nope was @brownpaperteddy who said that. Not me.

Someone holding a religious belief is no threat to me in a secular state

Someone creating a system where unless I believe what they do I will face censure IS a threat to me and I will fight the creation of that state, whilst still acknowledging their right to hold that belief

You can tell that transwomen are still male by observing how their dignity is perceived as way more important than that of females.

I have read the thread, i have posted on 2 transgender posts on feminism boards not because im a feminist, but because the posts just happen to be on these boards. And i felt strongly about subject being discussed. I disagreed with the majority and felt completely hounded off. The first time i was basiclly told i was wrong and shouldn't be on there and the second, my spelling was made fun off. (Im dyslexic) I find it hard to articulate what im thinking sometimes and just dont feel comfortable to post , i feel strongly about people should be free to be who they want. I know now what i say will be picked apart. But feel i want to explain myself. I understand the dangers of self ID but i dont agree with this anti trans theme. Yes i am aware u can be anti self ID amd not anti trans but if you are arguing that a man cannot be a women biologically with no consideration for there being any grey areas and that tranwomen should not be allowed to have title of women and the things that go with that, then you are anti trans to me. I think there is people on here who r just anti self ID but i think there is a awful lot of people who are not accepting of transpeople. And if you do not accept them living there life weather thats now as women or man then thats anti trans in my opinion.
Also on the first thread i posted on someone mentioned that's the reason trans women is such a no go using bathrooms is because most of the crimes are commit by males to females so there's more chance of that happening. we wouldn't prevent men from working in schools or nurseries just because they are men so I don't see why it would be any different. Also just because you are a transwomen dont automatically make you a sexual predator. I know thats obvious but feels it needed to be said.

Got you. As you won't accept them as women.

Except you did say this to me, Verbeena so you clearly do think it.

Because that, whether you intend it to be or not, is excluding them, is making their life difficult, is removing their dignity.

We are back to ‘be nice’ then.

What about my dignity? My safety? The safety of women locked up in jail? The privacy, safety and dignity of half the population?

You can tell that transwomen are still male by observing how their dignity is perceived as way more important than that of females.

Yes indeed.