Aggressive Feminism Boards

[PerverseConverse]

I've been on this board for a while now and long enough to understand the issues and why women are so vocal about them and angry that our rights are threatened.
I'm frustrated reading on other threads, or on social media that this board is aggressive, shoots down discussion, and calls people names if their views don't match the majority. I can't say that I've seen that myself. All I see is intelligent discussion and persuasive arguments. Any goadiness is appropriately dealt with from what I've read as are any views that don't match reality. Maybe that's what upsets people: that their delusions are challenged with indisputable reality.
I'm still new to feminism and learning daily but I see women fighting for other women and prepared to get flak for that. I see some women who have been well and truly brainwashed by the trans movement and by men and the patriarchy in general. And that's the other criticism: that we are too focused on the trans issue. That makes me angry. The trans issue is the major one affecting women and girls at the moment and it's right that we are focused on it.
These complaints are coming from women who are calling themselves feminists and it baffles me completely that feminists can't understand the biggest threat to women and girls.
Now, I'm aware these so called feminists may well be trolls but I don't think they all are. How can some feminists be so opposed to other feminists passionately protecting their rights? Rights that are for ALL women.

BrownPaperTeddy are you saying that atheists by definition have a problem with all Christians, because the latter believe in something that the Atheist does not buy in?

I thought our society had moved beyond this totalitarian mindset that we all need to believe the same stuff, no?

I have thought about this a lot. But then that is what has brought me to the conclusion that the only definition we can have, which works, is adult human female

I agree, and it's what I was trying to say in my post above.

There are a few fuzzy edges to the "adult human female" definition, and those of us who are not biologists will probably struggle to state exactly where the line is drawn between intersex people and people who fall into the category or man or woman. I don't think that disproves the general principle though.

If you do away with it altogether, and say, OK, a woman is something different, something wider or less obvious, not just adult females but something else. The question then is what? What is a woman? Where the hell do you draw the line then and say who is a woman and who isn't?

Question 2 of course is why does it matter and what difference will it make? THAT'S the important bit, but it's all meaningless unless you have answered question 1.

Sorry my last post was addressed to @Ereshkigal.

but for some it seems so much than that.

Why is my knowledge that you can't change sex and my refusal to pretend that you can "a problem"?

I don’t think you are this dumb so I’m guessing you are wilfully damaging debate. Self ID is about whether one can identify into womanhood. So that affects women, the definition of women and everything to do with women’s lives. As you we’ll know.

Self ID says men can become women and if you don’t think that’s true you’re going to have a problem with self ID. And also with the idea that men can become women.

This demand that you have to believe in the gender fairy in order not to be a bigot who hates on transwomen is patently absurd.

What's happened now, though, is we're being asked to undergo cognitive dissonance. We're being asked to say that transwomen ARE women, when we know that they are not. That's not to say anything about our attitude towards them - whether this is your best friend or what, it's a man who would prefer you to think of him as a woman.

That's what I can't do. I feel like I'm living in the 1984 novel. I'm being told that what I see and what I know just aren't true, and that something I know isn't true, is.

Absolutely this.

I'm not going to start excluding anyone unless they do something illegal and then I only hold that individual to account.

So no Safeguarding frameworks?

Male prisoner removed after he has sexually assaulted women locked in female estate?

Deal with this (likely) male offender after they have sexually assaulted two girls aged 10 and 12 in women's toilets in supermarket?
www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/702003/fife-teen-on-sex-offenders-register-after-supermarket-child-attacks/

What if they weren't caught?

Nope, no problem with transwomen but do not believe people change sex and want to preserve female only spaces. In this climate, that comes across to many as a problem with transwomen.

Yeah, it is this demand to fully buy into their belief system. It would be akin to banning all pork statewide, because Muslims demand we all take their belief system at face value. Or ban all steak, in order not to offend Hindus. It is patently absurd.

This demand that you have to believe in the gender fairy in order not to be a bigot who hates on transwomen is patently absurd

This too. I DO NOT believe in it and I will not say I do. I have no problem with MTF trans, only the aggressive misogynistic activists trying to empty the word woman of all meaning, silence us and invade our spaces.

it's blatantly not just about self ID on these boards. Lots of people do have genuine self ID concerns, but for some it seems so much than that.
That's where the problem lies.

why am I only allowed to be worried about self ID Verbeena?

I believe transgenderism to be a harmful ideology, as it is based in reinforcing harmful gender stereotypes

doesn't mean I hate all trans people

I believe Catholicism to be harmful, rooted as much of it is in harmful gender stereotypes and the perpetuation of patriarchy

doesn't mean I hate all Catholics

BrownPaperTeddy are you saying that atheists by definition have a problem with all Christians, because the latter believe in something that the Atheist does not buy in

It's not in the belief, it's in the enactment of those beliefs in my view.

So if atheists were refusing to allow Christians to do certain things or were excluding them from certain places just because they were Christians then yes I would say that by definition they had a problem with them.

I believe the same here. If you don't agree with someone's lifestyle fine. That is your right.

The argument against self ID is quite simple as far as I can see. It clearly is not right for it to be so easy for anyone to abuse a single sex space simply by saying I am a man/woman. That is just beyond ridiculous. It allows anyone to abuse the system.

But for me the argument can end there.

I don't think we need to really even bring transwomen (or men) into it as such.

We don't agree with self ID. That's it. Think again politicians. Bring out another consultation and we will look again.

I think way more people would be on board with that argument - that self ID just isn't workable than actually pitting everyone against each other.

We don't agree with self ID. That's it. Think again politicians. Bring out another consultation and we will look again.

I think way more people would be on board with that argument - that self ID just isn't workable than actually pitting everyone against each other.

Don't you realise that has been done?

That's where the problem lies.

You have a problem with people not believing in the Gender Religion?

I have a problem with religionists thinking the UK should become a theocracy.

I have no problem with MTF trans, only the aggressive misogynistic activists trying to empty the word woman of all meaning, silence us and invade our spaces

Well, that's a contradiction and a half. You clearly said upthread that you can't understand why it's not wrong to accept that any male is ever a woman.
That's having a problem with all MTF trans, no?

This is about the fundamental issue of sex. Of course we need to be able to explain why.

I believe Catholicism to be harmful, rooted as much of it is in harmful gender stereotypes and the perpetuation of patriarchy

doesn't mean I hate all Catholics

I can't know what you do or don't think.

But how can you accept someone whose very beliefs you believe to be harmful? Do you not have a fundamental problem with Catholics just based on their beliefs?

I had no idea you were so concerned about self ID. All the bait and switch you do on these threads meant I missed that fact. So let’s agree that self ID is really damaging.

I will continue to disagree with transgender ideology and you will continue to think it’s legitimate.

So if atheists were refusing to allow Christians to do certain things

so I'd probably donate to a crowdfunder to prevent christians stoning adulterers to death - does that make me a bigot?

I also (gasp!) support the right of people to wear clothes made of mixed fibres

reporting to the gulag now

Well, that's a contradiction and a half. You clearly said upthread that you can't understand why it's not wrong to accept that any male is ever a woman.
That's having a problem with all MTF trans, no?

No it's not! I don't have a "problem" with Miranda Yardley! He, an MTF trans person, knows (he uses he) that you can't change sex and that he is male! Does he have a problem with all MTF trans people too do you think? Even himself?

That's having a problem with all MTF trans, no?

No. I have no problem with Christians. I think Christianity is a deeply patriarchal religion and I will criticise it in no uncertain terms.

Separate the ideology from the individual. none of us dislike anyone simply because, or discriminate against people simply because, they are trans. We are saying that the ideology is troubling, because it has a lot of knock on issues that affect women.

Humans cannot change sex. Ever, under any circumstances. Changing the law and societal norms to force people to say and act as if they can is troubling and dangerous. Allowing people to present and dress however they wish and smashing gender as a concept is a good thing. Removing all sex based protections from women is not.

Again - the ideology vs the individual

Separate the ideology from the individual. none of us dislike anyone simply because, or discriminate against people simply because, they are trans. We are saying that the ideology is troubling, because it has a lot of knock on issues that affect women.

This. Great post.

All the bait and switch you do on these threads meant I missed that fact. So let’s agree that self ID is really damaging.

None of us on this thread have even hinted at the fact that we agree with self ID. We have all been very clear that we don't agree with it. No bait and switch going on at all.

No it's not! I don't have a "problem" with Miranda Yardley! He, an MTF trans person, knows (he uses he) that you can't change sex and that he is male!

OK, one escapes you then and passes as he (using he as you said he uses them) male pronouns.
Anyone else though, all transwomen if they don't, you have a problem with.
Got you. As you won't accept them as women.